If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

[FlyingTeaPot]

a criminal offers almost same justice and 'free-will'

1) Criminal gave free will , either should allow him to steal or he will shoot you.
2) Criminal said don't do bad things, bad thing is not allowing him to steal.
3) if you choose to do bad things, its your fault.
4) blaming criminal for your fault is just dumb. :bonk:

Well, as tarasan said, Society:

1)gave free will
2)society says dont do bad things
3)If you choose to do bad things it is your fault
4)blaming society for your fault is just dumb.
5) you'll be put in jail.

Which is what I was agreeing with. This applies to god also for those who believe in god. Which is why i cannot see a relation between free will and being mindless and blaming god for your actions. God doesn't exist, but for those who believe in fairy tales, it should make sense.

 

[nameless]

I understand what you are saying, i know how this sounds. But i don't look at it exactly that way. I mean if there is a god, with such attributes, not only do i not mind worshiping and respecting and loving him, i actually like to do it. I mean it's not slavery like we are doing things he orders as service to him, or to entertain him, it's different.

appreciating your tendency to worship and respect god, but everyone is not the same. Some people finds no logic in worshiping or respecting god, is that a big sin which deserves never-ending punishment?

I'm not sure i understand what you're saying here, if you could elaborate more i'd appreciate it.

let god give heaven for those who does good, and hell for those does bad. BUt why god is punishing those who are not involving in anything good or bad? how this can be 'free-will'?

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

a criminal offers almost same justice and 'free-will'

1) Criminal gave free will , either should allow him to steal or he will shoot you.
2) Criminal said don't do bad things, bad thing is not allowing him to steal.
3) if you choose to do bad things, its your fault.
4) blaming criminal for your fault is just dumb. :bonk:

Even with your argument, I would have to say I will blame the guy being held up if he acts dumb and tries to be a hero. I personally would give my possessions to a thief if he is holding me at gunpoint.

You are making the assumption here that the criminal is all powerful and has good motives, which is what god is supposed to be. If you are more powerful than the criminal then by all means overpower him. Same applies for god.

 

[Badran]

appreciating your tendency to worship and respect god, but everyone is not the same. Some people finds no logic in worshiping or respecting god, is that a big sin which deserves never-ending punishment?

If there is indeed a god that created us, and requires us to worship him and so on, it's very big to say he's not worthy of respect, or to deny he even exists. I know the never ending punishment is a very strong punishment. The problem with these questions, and there complication i believe, is because it always leads back to god's perspective and motives on somethings, which we don't know.

let god give heaven for those who does good, and hell for those does bad. BUt why god is punishing those who are not involving in anything good or bad? how this can be 'free-will'?

How could someone be so neutral though? I mean how could someone not be involved in anything good or bad?

Or do you mean why does he punish them for an act that is not good or bad (wether or not they believe in him)?

 

[tarasan]

The problem is an Abrahamic one. If god is all knowing, then when he makes us, he knows exactly what his creation would do and develop because he can take in account all factors that have a role. If this is the case, one can not truly act out in their own will, because god used his will to create us to do everything he knew we would do. If some people go to hell, then god is no longer unloving because he knew what he created would go to hell.

have you ever heard of the doctrine of middle knowedge because i beleive that it answers this question quite well.

 

[mywa]

HE gave us free will to choose for ourselves if we sincerly want to be with Him.

 

[Nerthus]

You have free will and you have right and wrong.

You can chose whether to hurt someone, but having the free will to make that decision doesn't mean that whatever you chose will be the correct option.

God gave us free will to make and choose our own decisions, but He has stated what He would like from us. We can chose to walk away from Him, or chose to walk with Him. He will not force us to follow Him, but would like us to.

 

[Willamena]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

You are not damned for choosing; you are damned for having a choice.

 

[logician]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

We have free will due to the randomness of nature(no god), and none of us is "damned" regardless of the decisions we make.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

God wants you to choose Him. Without free will it's not a choice. Now, is this really question about free will or why people are condemned?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You are not damned for choosing; you are damned for having a choice.

That's not a Biblical position.

 

[the_naturalist]

Well! Of all the stupid posts I have ever encountered, the OP has to be right up there.

1) God gave us free will - therefore, we can choose to do right or wrong.
2) If you choose to do wrong, you are punished.

What is the confusion about? Seems plenty straight forward to me.

That would be fine and dandy to do the right things ... But certain things, we don't know what is right or wrong ... For example, it says in the bible that if you break the sabbath, you should die ... Further, it says that if your neighbor sees you breaking the sabbath, your neighbor should die too ... Further, there are lots of biblical laws that are not acceptable in today's enlightenment and secular laws ... Your argument is naive ...

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

That would be fine and dandy to do the right things ... But certain things, we don't know what is right or wrong ... For example, it says in the bible that if you break the sabbath, you should die ... Further, it says that if your neighbor sees you breaking the sabbath, your neighbor should die too ... Further, there are lots of biblical laws that are not acceptable in today's enlightenment and secular laws ... Your argument is naive ...

Well, if you believe in fairy tales, that should seem easy to you. I was talking in terms of the narrow biblical construct you provided. But yes, I do agree with you that the god of the OT seems to be a sadistic prick.

 

[it's_sam]

The_naturalist being damned to me would mean you have convinced yourself beyond all doubt that you dont want or need to exist and have done every action to enforce this will. It mostly depends on what part of the bible your reading from that depends on what it says you should do. Wich comes back to interpritation, or how you see things. Choosing wrongly would require you repeatedly doing something that you know in all your being isnt the right thing.

 

[newhope101]

Hey FlyingTeaPot, I've taken an interest in the bible myself and looked at it without the influence of any religionists dictating to me. I don't think it's as black and white as all wrongdoers will be punished. Acts 24:15 speaks to a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Those familiar with the story of the crucificiction of Jesus will remember him saying to a theif crucified alongside Jesus that the theif would be with him in paradise. Luke 23:42,43

I think so many more people would be accepting of religion if it wasn't so darn exclusionary. Most faiths preach that they are the ones and everyone else has no hope. I'm saddened by Christian religions that only see the scriptures that suit them and try to be 'hollier than thou'.

The bible clearly speaks to two different groups of people and speaks to these at different times. There are the holy ones the bible says they get the first resurrection Rev Ch20 and the Gentiles, who are the other sheep John 10:15,16. A greater level of responsibility is placed on those that say they are the holy ones, like Mathew, Mark, Luke and holy leaders today etc. The scriptures that assign instant damnation are to these 'holy ones'. They shepherd the flock and not too well these days, I feel.


It seems unfair that any loving God would not offer hope in some way to all the nations. I do not believe in calling and the 'good' will find us, I think that's a con. Regardless of the faith it would seem unfair somehow to punish people that have had no exposure to any faith that may please God.. Mathew:24 and many other scriptures speak of false prophets that will lead many astray. An all knowing God armed with this knowledge would not be very loving if he struck down millions without giving them a chance to 'see' the truth and repent.,, and indeed the God of the bible has offered a resurection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

Those of us that have this view will then serve God knowing that it aint going to make any difference. It's about serving God without the need for a greater reward than others. It's also about humility and not seeking glory modelling Jesus and other bible writers. It's about truly loving thy neighbour.

 

[Amill]

If it's true that there is a god, and he created a hell where he does send people for having the wrong belief, then I can't really see any way around the fact that he simply has a desire to send those people there. There's no reason he'd feel bad for doing it, it's not like he doesn't want to send mistaken believers there. He created hell and the rules that go along with it. Free will exists most likely because he enjoys it when someone believes in him with their free will, but really dislikes it when they don't. Dislikes it so much, in fact, that he wants those people to be tortured for eternity. It makes him feel better to torture those people than to make them disappear.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Hey FlyingTeaPot, I've taken an interest in the bible myself and looked at it without the influence of any religionists dictating to me. I don't think it's as black and white as all wrongdoers will be punished. Acts 24:15 speaks to a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Those familiar with the story of the crucificiction of Jesus will remember him saying to a theif crucified alongside Jesus that the theif would be with him in paradise. Luke 23:42,43

I think so many more people would be accepting of religion if it wasn't so darn exclusionary. Most faiths preach that they are the ones and everyone else has no hope. I'm saddened by Christian religions that only see the scriptures that suit them and try to be 'hollier than thou'.

The bible clearly speaks to two different groups of people and speaks to these at different times. There are the holy ones the bible says they get the first resurrection Rev Ch20 and the Gentiles, who are the other sheep John 10:15,16. A greater level of responsibility is placed on those that say they are the holy ones, like Mathew, Mark, Luke and holy leaders today etc. The scriptures that assign instant damnation are to these 'holy ones'. They shepherd the flock and not too well these days, I feel.


It seems unfair that any loving God would not offer hope in some way to all the nations. I do not believe in calling and the 'good' will find us, I think that's a con. Regardless of the faith it would seem unfair somehow to punish people that have had no exposure to any faith that may please God.. Mathew:24 and many other scriptures speak of false prophets that will lead many astray. An all knowing God armed with this knowledge would not be very loving if he struck down millions without giving them a chance to 'see' the truth and repent.,, and indeed the God of the bible has offered a resurection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

Those of us that have this view will then serve God knowing that it aint going to make any difference. It's about serving God without the need for a greater reward than others. It's also about humility and not seeking glory modelling Jesus and other bible writers. It's about truly loving thy neighbour.

While all this is true, I fail to see any connection between this post and my posts. I do not mean to offend you, just curious. Can you help me out with that?

 

[MurphtheSurf]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

Only the adherents of false religions would consider you "damned" in this case.
Unfortuately, our western culture leans on false teachings such as these.

 

[DarkSun]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

It depends how you define "free". Even if we did live in a society without rules, there will always be certain fundamental laws that we have to follow; laws like gravity. So if you define "freedom" as a lack of rules, then we can never be truly free. Under that definition of "free will", it is something we can never actually obtain.

But if you define freedom as a state of mind where you live your life without fear of punishment, without fear of death, transience or suffering, according to your own conscience and no one elses', regardless of what they threaten you with. If define it as living in this moment, in each moment, as each moment passes you by; then freedom is something very real and liberating that you can actually obtain.

Regardless of which definition you choose, you can't ever win if you believe in a God who threatens eternal hellfire. If you choose the first definition, then you can't be free, because God is essentially restricting your choices. "Do the right thing or else." If you choose the second definition, then if this God exists, then you can still be free, but you'd have to face the consequences this tyrant dishes out in the end. It's your choice. :sarcastic

 

[Hawkins]

let god give heaven for those who does good, and hell for those does bad. BUt why god is punishing those who are not involving in anything good or bad? how this can be 'free-will'?

So you agree that when one is judged by Law to be good, he will be in heaven, right? That's exactly what Christianity is.

More is, if you are judged to be 'bad' in accordance to His Law, you'll be in hell. Still God wants to save more and Jesus came such that you believe in Him to be saved even in the case that you are judged to be bad.

You lost sense about His Law, so don't judge yourself to say that you are 'not bad'. To best secure your status to be in heaven, you need thus to believe Jesus Christ. It is warned long time ago that, if you eat the fruits from the Tree of Knowledge to think that you can judge good and evil like God does, the day you eat of it the same day you shall surely die.

That's what Christianity is.