If God is outside of time...

[Sanzbir]

I see those sorts of prayers as more about being solipsistic than being about changing the past. I think that the person looking at the test result envelope is just thinking about what it says inside and hasn't given a thought to the fact that the envelope's contents were already determined by the technicians in the lab that analyzed the biopsy or whatnot.

Regardless of how they are looking at the situation, though, regardless of if they have thought through the implications, they are indeed praying for the alteration of the past.

Whether people knowingly ask for such things is another question, I think.

So you don't pray for the past to be changed because you don't pray for change at all?

Yeah. Why would I?? Things are fine, things have always been fine, and things will always be fine.

To those who wish things to be one way and not the other, all that can be said is "Shoo! Get back! Don't disturb the process of change!" (-Chuang Tzu)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe I have prayed for an operation to go well after the operation was performed.

So knowing that the operation went poorly, you prayed for it to have gone differently?

I believe the saying that Jesus made that we have enough trouble today without borrowing from the past or future.

So you don't ask God for anything?

I believe there is a timeline and that changes made in the distant past while changing that timeline would not affect my timeline. So say the assassination of Hitler was changed to successful in the year 2000 then that would be true for a new timeline in the 1940s but not true for the 2000 timeline.

From a perspective outside of time, wouldn't this also be the case for changes to what you consider the future?

 

[Sanzbir]

Also, I feel in addition to my serious answer, that I should also give at least one non-serious answer to this topic.

"No, I've never prayed for God to change the past.

At least not in the current timeline.

In alternate timelines I prayed to change the past all the time, though. God answered all of those prayers, however, thus negating the need for those prayers in this timeline in the first place.

Every time I pray for the past to change, it does, and then my prayer is scrubbed completely from the timeline as if it never happened."

 

[syo]

... seemingly, to us inside time. Why would this be the case for a being outside of time?

god cares about us, and he doesn't want us living in havoc, by playing with time. time is essential to us, that's why.

 

[atanu]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

There is a scriptural document, 'Yoga Vasistha' that deals with various such situations. The past could be changed but that would be another consciousness plane which would not be accessible to you inhabiting the current one.

 

[David T]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

The problem in theism is what we call chronos. Are you asking is god outside chronos? In modern thinking there is only chronos Einstein did us a favor and blew it up what we don't have is any other cultural notion. Ancients actually did but heaven forbid a modern theist understands it. I would take all theists say with a mountain of salt in context to the topic the Sincerely "believe" they understand. Clearly they don't.

 

[idav]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

But Penguin, sending a message to your past self in order to change a future thing is the only way to get passed the subsequent knowledge barrier of not knowing how an alternate reality turns out.

So do example if I want to stop the Kennedy assignation, I go back in time and tell my past self how to stop it but then my future self would never remember to tell past self to change this and then time corrects itself.

So at best wishing for passed things only creates an alternative reality in which that did occur, and I would wish for something different.

I hope your following, I think I still am lol.

 

[Laughing Coyote]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

The mathematician, physicist, philosopher and theologian Alfred North Whitehead developed an entire theology that, among other things, sought to deal with this question in a way aimed at recognizing for both science and religion (which he did not see as separate) the revolutionary consequences implied in Einstein's special and general theories of relativity, which so far even science in practice continues as if they don't exist. He spoke of a "primordial existence of god" which represents the potential of all things in the universe. This potential, as I yet very poorly understand him, are realized in the transactions at every moment of every entity in the universe, from fundamental particles to galaxies, galaxy clusters and super clusters and to the universe as a whole. These nearly infinite constant realizations of potentials together lead to continually unfolding temporal manifestation of god, representing a continual dynamic force taking form in the expanding universe. Every event from every moment of every particle to the largest structures has significance in relationship to everything else in the universe. While this theology recognizes an infinitely creative universe, it cannot at the same time allow for a God that intervenes in a personal way since it would imply God introducing limitations on the potential he/she/it/etc. embodies, which in the end would undermine the possibility of creativity, which is to say the possibility of anything at all.

This is my interpretation and probably misrepresentation. But it is to say this topic is being deeply thought about, particularly among theologians, because it allows for a God that recognizes the discoveries and understandings obtained by science, and ecologists, because it provides an all encompassing framework for their attempt to obtain a holistic view of how the world's system of life operates. A or the major Whiteheadean school of thought for theologians is called "process theory" derived from the work of John Cobb, for which there are a growing number of institutes all over the world including at least 13 in China, and "ecospherics theory" for ecologists which, among other things, underlays an effort for a revolutionary transformation of agriculture and human relationship to our planet.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But Penguin, sending a message to your past self in order to change a future thing is the only way to get passed the subsequent knowledge barrier of not knowing how an alternate reality turns out.

I think we're talking about different things. I'm not talking about communicating with your past self or knowing that the past was changed. I'm just talking about praying to God to ask him to change the past the way that people pray for God to change the future.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The problem in theism is what we call chronos. Are you asking is god outside chronos?

I have no idea what you mean by "chronos." AFAIK, it's just the Greek word for time, but you're using it as if it's different and as if you expect me to know what that difference is.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So do you believe that God is outside of time?

I don't believe in gods, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. My answer is "no" because to exist means to exist in time - to persist through some duration of consecutive instants before which a thing didn't exist and after which it no longer exists.

It's not meaningful to say existing outside of time just as it's not meaningful to say that a god or any other entity could act or even think outside of time. All of this words imply before and after states. If God acts, He acts in time.

 

[idav]

I think we're talking about different things. I'm not talking about communicating with your past self or knowing that the past was changed. I'm just talking about praying to God to ask him to change the past the way that people pray for God to change the future.

The our father prays for his will be done, so it's like praying that what has happened is gods will. IDK the whole praying to change gods will seems counterintuitive to me.

 

[ChristineM]

There are many religious people of different faiths who say god is outside time, as with many other aspects of religious faith there is no evidence to suggest this nor is such mentioned in the bible, on the contrary, the bible is clear that the abrahamic god has a past, experiences change and hence is within time.

It is my experience and understanding that Christians in particular use timelessness as an apologetic.

 

[BSM1]

So you only pray for things when you would be able to measure your prayer's success?

That wasn't my point. How could God increase your devotion? Wouldn't you have to generate this on your own?

And after thinking about your question, well...duh.... What would be the point in prayer if there were no way to determine it's effectiveness?

 

[sun rise]

I think we're talking about different things. I'm not talking about communicating with your past self or knowing that the past was changed. I'm just talking about praying to God to ask him to change the past the way that people pray for God to change the future.

Since I don't pray that way, the question is not relevant to me. But I do know people who have had terrible pasts who would not change their past because it made them what they are today and they value their present state highly.

 

[Sleeppy]

Yes. God is outside of time. Yes. Prayer is redundant.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

but I am sure that I shall hear from you again.

Yeah, you probably will.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

I think you answered your own question, it's a matter of perspective, all time exists concurrently for God, he is not constrained by the laws of his creation.

But we are, our perspective is different, the past has already happened for us, the future has not

 

[savagewind]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

I do not pray for God to change the past. I believe Jesus was for changing the future. I think that maybe, even already past, the human race might have destroyed themselves and most of the life on the Earth. So, I believe God DID change the past.

 

[savagewind]

If The Lord God was in time like we are God would have to answer to time like we do.
I understand that God has nothing and no one to answer to.
So, therefore, God must be above and beyond time.