If God knew beforehand why did he go through with it?

[Just_me_Mike]

imperfection/evil was not created, but it is allowed. It is allowed so that we can have free will, and so we can learn, gain an appreciation for things.

Says who?

 

[idea]

Evil didnt just come to be by itself, ultimately it came out from God otherwise this "evil" was some sort of god itself to create itself. Strongs definition of the hebrew word bara

1. to create, shape, form
2. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
   1. of heaven and earth
   2. of individual man
   3. of new conditions and circumstances
   4. of transformations
3. (Niphal) to be created
   1. of heaven and earth
   2. of birth
   3. of something new
   4. of miracles
4. (Piel)
   1. to cut down
   2. to cut out
5. to be fat
   1. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Sorry transform doesnt fit this definition and for that fact the word "bara" is almost always tranlated create. Are you denying God creating Jesus? Are you God is not a creator but a transformer? Come on now

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. God transforms things...

bara means "shape, fashon, transform, cut, make fat"

Evil is as eternal in nature as God and Good. Nothing "came into existence". Everything has always existed.

 

[idea]

Says who?

Look around, evil exists.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Look around, evil exists.

Yes evil exists, but just because it exists, or is at least perceptable, we can't conclude where it came from, or if it was created.

 

[idea]

PS - LDS are not the only ones who believe God did not create evil...

​

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:

The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!​

- William Wordsworth, “Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood,” in The Oxford Book of English Verse: 1250–1900, ed. Arthur Quiller-Couch (1939), 628.

 

[idea]

Yes evil exists, but just because it exists, or is at least perceptable, we can't conclude where it came from, or if it was created.

I don't think it was created. God was not created - God is not the only thing that was not created.

How Satan fell, if anyone wants to know...

There was a war in heaven in which Satan sought to take away our free agency. 1/3 of the formed spirits followed Satan and became fallen angels, never to receive a body. The other 2/3 – us – chose to come here. We are here because we chose to come here.

Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10: 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

More details on this war..
Moses 4: 1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.


What would it take to save everyone? It would require taking away agency. 1/3 of the spirits in heaven followed Satan, did not want the pain that ownership of agency brings. The rest of the spirits - us - chose to come here

 

[AK4]

Our birth was not our beginning…
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This man had the ability to sin before he was born - again, our birth was not our begining... our spirit lives after we die, our spirit lived before we were born.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
(New Testament | John9:2 - 3)

We existed before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

“return” means coming to a state that we have previously been to – not “come” as if it were our first experience, but “return”

We are as old as God is.
Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

The potter did not make the clay – he transforms what already exists…

See this scripture right here should show you that maybe the LDS church/teachings are wrong

New International Version (©1984)
1 Cor 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

As for that Jeremiah verse, God knows all the end from the beginning so of course He knew Jeremiah "in the womb" just like elsewhere it says we are written in "the book" from the foundation of the world.

Isa 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I don't think it was created. God was not created - God is not the only thing that was not created.

Says who?

 

[idea]

Says who?

do you want scriptures? or conservation laws? both support eternity.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

do you want scriptures? or conservation laws? both support eternity.

We're not talking about eternity in case you didn't know. We are discussing evil and where it came from. Which you say it came from nothing, and also that it is from eternity.

Who says that, and what does conservation have to do with that?

 

[idea]

See this scripture right here should show you that maybe the LDS church/teachings are wrong

New International Version (©1984)
1 Cor 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

"the natural man is an enemy to God" this script is merely saying that we started out naturally evil, just the chaotic way of things. Our natural carnal nature is changed through this life into something different - into the "new creature".​

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians5:17)

our spiritual perfect nature did not come first. We start out carnal is all this is saying.



EDIT:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. " from link

LOL - in the midst of glory... I guess God saw our glorious potential instead of well...

As for that Jeremiah verse, God knows all the end from the beginning so of course He knew Jeremiah "in the womb" just like elsewhere it says we are written in "the book" from the foundation of the world.

Isa 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

you can explain away why the aposltes believed that "this man was able to sin before he was born"... what "return" means etc. etc. how you want... if you want to believe that God is the author of evil, I think that is a pretty sad viewpoint of God, but you have free will and can believe what you want

 

[idea]

We're not talking about eternity in case you didn't know. We are discussing evil and where it came from. Which you say it came from nothing, and also that it is from eternity.

Who says that, and what does conservation have to do with that?

sorry, no, it did not come from "nothing" just as God did not come from "nothing". It has always existed - no beginning. No beginning to any of it.

conservation laws - conservation of mass/energy - laws of thermo, you don't get something from nothing. That we are now surrounded by something means something has always and will always exist - it can change form, but things don't just blip in and out of existence. The origins debate is pointless - there is no origin, for any of it. Everything has always existed is the simplest solution.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

sorry, no, it did not come from "nothing" just as God did not come from "nothing". It has always existed - no beginning. No beginning to any of it.

conservation laws - conservation of mass/energy - laws of thermo, you don't get something from nothing. That we are now surrounded by something means something has always and will always exist - it can change form, but things don't just blip in and out of existence. The origins debate is pointless - there is no origin, for any of it. Everything has always existed is the simplest solution.

This may be the simplest solution for you, and because that provides you comfort, you find this reasoning absolute truth. When in fact it is just your opinion.

 

[idea]

This may be the simplest solution for you, and because that provides you comfort, you find this reasoning absolute truth. When in fact it is just your opinion.

conservation laws are not my mere opinion.
nor is the fact that the word "create" is a mistranslation a mere opinion.
God is not the Creator, claims academic - Telegraph


It is not just what I want to be true... It is what the Spirit has testified to me is true .

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong..
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 9:7 - 9)

sleep on the ideas... see if you can easily forget them, easily chase them from your mind...

God is loving, perfect, selfless, wonderful. God did not create evil.

 

[cottage]

not just about free will. Good does not exist without evil. good is a relative term... relative terms don't exist without their opposites - theory of relativity

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first–born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no apurpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not bthere is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath bcreated all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi2:11 - 16)

If that is supposed to justify the existence of evil then it is a rubbish argument.


When we speak of a relative term all that is being said is if there were only the one descriptive term its correlative could not exist. If for example we dispense with the word 'light', we have not disposed of 'light', the condition, but only the term, which is now redundant, the darkness and light continues as before. Similarly if we were to annihilate evil, the condition, the behaviour that we knew previously as 'good' will simply continue as before, unaffected and now without the need for any distinction. Obvious really!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It is what the Spirit has testified to me is true

Just try to discern what is coming from your mind and wishful thinking, and what is actually coming from God.

Have you ever just considered, that God could have created evil without being evil himself, and that there is an argument that states just that? Thus making God above everything even evil.

 

[idea]

If that is supposed to justify the existence of evil then it is a rubbish argument.


When we speak of a relative term all that is being said is if there were only the one descriptive term its correlative could not exist. If for example we dispense with the word 'light', we have not disposed of 'light', the condition, but only the term, which is now redundant, the darkness and light continues as before. Similarly if we were to annihilate evil, the condition, the behaviour that we knew previously as 'good' will simply continue as before, unaffected and now without the need for any distinction. Obvious really!

It's not just the word that has to exist, the thing has to exist.

Velocity - does not exist without opposition as an example... What is the velocity of a single object without reference to anything else? Velocity is not undefined, it literally does not exist for a single object without a reference frame.

Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

not just words/terms - it's reality. Relative terms like velocity literally do not exist without opposition, without a reference frame.

 

[AK4]

"the natural man is an enemy to God" this script is merely saying that we started out naturally evil, just the chaotic way of things. Our natural carnal nature is changed through this life into something different - into the "new creature".​

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians5:17)

our spiritual perfect nature did not come first. We start out carnal is all this is saying.

Wait a minute, LDS teaches we were spirit beings before we became human so if that is you guys teaching and you put "we started out naturally evil," then your argument is contradicting itself.

you can explain away why "this man was able to sin before he was born"... what "return" means etc. etc. how you want... if you want to believe that God is the author of evil, I think that is a pretty sad viewpoint of God, but you have free will and can believe what you want

Actually if you read all the words carefully Jesus said He didnt sin but was brought up this way to glorify God.

Return means you started out as dust and wehn we actually decay away were dust again.

Author of evil--God says this Himself. Job proved to his "friends" this also and God said that only he [Job] spoke right about Him [God].

And freewill is a myth, you dont want to get me started on that

 

[idea]

Just try to discern what is coming from your mind and wishful thinking, and what is actually coming from God.

My first spiritual experience was not born of wishful thinking...

Have you ever just considered, that God could have created evil without being evil himself, and that there is an argument that states just that? Thus making God above everything even evil.

I agree that God is above evil, but think it would be hypocritical to suggest that God created evil. imperfection is born of imperfection.

5 God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
(New Testament | 1 John 1:5)

 

[AK4]

Just try to discern what is coming from your mind and wishful thinking, and what is actually coming from God.

Have you ever just considered, that God could have created evil without being evil himself, and that there is an argument that states just that? Thus making God above everything even evil.

Frugals. That is exactly what the Word teaches.