If God knew beforehand why did he go through with it?

[idea]

Wait a minute, LDS teaches we were spirit beings before we became human so if that is you guys teaching and you put "we started out naturally evil," then your argument is contradicting itself.

LDS does not teach that we start out perfect. "Spirit being" does not mean perfect. There are evil spirit beings.

example:
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
(New Testament | Acts19:15)

SPIRIT. See also Death, Physical; Man, Men; Resurrection; Soul
That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4–5; Moses 3:4–7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15–16; D&C 77:2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131:7).
Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12:9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2:7; D&C 88:15; Moses 3:7, 9, 19; Abr. 5:7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2:26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11:45; D&C 138:16–17).
A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24:39. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God, Rom. 8:16. Glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, 1 Cor. 6:20. This body is the body of my spirit, Ether 3:16. Man is spirit, D&C 93:33. Christ ministered to the righteous spirits in paradise, D&C 138:28–30 (1 Pet. 3:18–19). Ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, Moses 6:59. He stood among those that were spirits, Abr. 3:23.
Evil spirits: Jesus cast out many devils, Mark 1:27, 34, 39. Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit, Mark 5:2–13. The evil spirit teacheth a man that he must not pray, 2 Ne. 32:8. In the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits, 3 Ne. 7:19. Many false spirits have gone forth deceiving the world, D&C 50:2, 31–32. Joseph Smith explained three keys for determining whether a spirit is of God or the devil, D&C 129.
(Guide to the Scriptures | SSpirit.:Entry - Evil spirits)

Actually if you read all the words carefully Jesus said He didnt sin but was brought up this way to glorify God.

Exactly - Jesus did not say "Why did you suggest he could sin before he was born? You know his spirit did not exist before he was born, he didn't sin because he didn't exist yet"... Jesus said - no, he did not sin in the premortal life, he was one of the good spirits before he was born - one of the spirits who chose to follow God's plan and come to Earth, his lot in life now was not due to anything wrong he did in the premortal life.

Return means you started out as dust and wehn we actually decay away were dust again.

return means we start out as a spirit, and then when we die we return to being a spirit again

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

We call God our "Heavenly Father" because He is the Father of our spirits...

And freewill is a myth, you dont want to get me started on that

free will exists.

only an uncreated self-existent being can have free will.
If we are created, then everything we are can be traced back to how we were created = no free will.

 

[idea]

Do you want "eternal life"?

The word "eternal" in "eternal life" means no beginning. It is impossible to gain "eternal life" if part of us had a beginning.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

aiōnios - is also used to describe God.
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting




Mat 19:16And 2532, behold 2400 , one 1520 came 4334 and said 2036 unto him 846, Good 18 Master 1320, what 5101 good thing 18 shall I do 4160 , that 2443 I may have 2192 eternal 166 life 2222?

 

[cottage]

It's not just the word that has to exist, the thing has to exist.

Neither the terms nor the conditions have to exist together. Read the second example that I gave.

Velocity - does not exist without opposition as an example... What is the velocity of a single object without reference to anything else? Velocity is not undefined, it literally does not exist for a single object without a reference frame.

So, velocity has to exist now, does it?


Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

not just words/terms - it's reality. Relative terms like velocity literally do not exist without opposition, without a reference frame.

I’m sorry but you’ve got in a muddle with this. It’s dead simple: if velocity doesn’t have to exist, then neither does any frame of reference that may be applicable to it. And that principle applies to everything.

 

[idea]

Neither the terms nor the conditions have to exist together.

I don't know that I am completely understanding what you are trying to say. Good and evil do not have to exist together, but they do each need to exist.

Did you get the example I posted earlier about the cup of water?

 

[idea]

bumping

We can't gain a full enjoyment of things without a full appreciation of them...

example - glass of water...
sitting at home on the couch watching a movie, someone gives you a glass of water. "What - why are you giving me this? well, OK" - and the water sits there on the side table untouched....

go without water for a bit - on a desert - worst case scenerio etc. etc. - now same person gives you the same glass of water, only now you appreciate it... forever after you appreciate it, enjoy it, love the taste of it... through the experience of going without, water now gives you great joy and pleasure, as where before it did not...

To gain the fullest amount of pleasure/joy out of a thing, we must first experience the opposite.


7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
(Old Testament | Isaiah54:7)

considering the infinite sea of eternity which stretches out before and after us... a small moment of misery seems a small price to pay to gain an eterntiy of joy - joy which is only achieved when we gain an appreciation of what good is....

 

[AK4]

LDS does not teach that we start out perfect. "

So they teach some start out as a sinning spirit, come to earth to be a sinning human and then depending on what they did they can become a "perfect spirit" or a still unperfect [possibly still a sinning] spirit in one of the realms you guys believe spirits go. See how that still contradicts 1Cor 15:46.

Exactly - Jesus did not say "Why did you suggest he could sin before he was born? You know his spirit did not exist before he was born, he didn't sin because he didn't exist yet"... Jesus said - no, he did not sin in the premortal life, he was one of the good spirits before he was born - one of the spirits who chose to follow God's plan and come to Earth, his lot in life now was not due to anything wrong he did in the premortal life.

No, Jesus also didnt say "he did not sin in the premortal life, he was one of the good spirits before he was born - one of the spirits who chose to follow God's plan and come to Earth, his lot in life now was not due to anything wrong he did in the premortal life." No Jesus says 3"{It was} neither {that} this man sinned, nor his parents; but {it was} so that the works of God might be displayed in him. Jesus doesnt mention anything about a prelife this guy had. Jesus used their own wrong thinking and beliefs to correct them. Also notice the underlined part---it destroys freewill for that man doesnt it?

return means we start out as a spirit, and then when we die we return to being a spirit again

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes12:7)

We call God our "Heavenly Father" because He is the Father of our spirits...

The spirit returns. When the dust is combined with the breath of God [spirit] it becomes a living soul. The dust being the body and the spirit being ingredient #2 mixed together you have a living soul. The spirit without a body is nothing

free will exists.

only an uncreated self-existent being can have free will.
If we are created, then everything we are can be traced back to how we were created = no free will.

Exactly and thats why we have the multiple scriptures that say all is out of/from God and since He has a plan, freewill doesnt exist.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

My first spiritual experience was not born of wishful thinking...



I agree that God is above evil, but think it would be hypocritical to suggest that God created evil. imperfection is born of imperfection.

5 God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
(New Testament | 1 John1:5)

Why does evil have to be imperfection?

 

[AK4]

Do you want "eternal life"?

The word "eternal" in "eternal life" means no beginning. It is impossible to gain "eternal life" if part of us had a beginning.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

aiōnios - is also used to describe God.
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting




Mat 19:16And 2532, behold 2400 , one 1520 came 4334 and said 2036 unto him 846, Good 18 Master 1320, what 5101 good thing 18 shall I do 4160 , that 2443 I may have 2192 eternal 166 life 2222?

To bad aionis doesnt mean eternal/everlasting/forever and ever etc etc. That BLB lexicon got that definition wrong.

Let me show you how you cant make that word mean "that which always has been and always will be".

If a spirit was a perfect spirit "everlasting" or already an everlasting perfect spirit that means it could never,

first off, had a beginning--that is what everlasting/eternal means
2nd, once this perfect spirit changed to something else you have another beginning for it i.e. change from spirit to human, so therefore it was never an eternal spirit, it was never eternally perfect, it thus had at least two beginnings--one as an eternally perfect spirit then another beginning as a sinning human

So it was never eternally a spirit, and never eternally perfect

 

[cottage]

I don't know that I am completely understanding what you are trying to say. Good and evil do not have to exist together, but they do each need to exist.

No they don’t, actually. They are terms that describe a state or condition. We understand the one term because the other exists, but neither of the conditions must exist. If we annihilate the condition ‘short’ its correlative ‘tall’ continues to exist as before. The only difference is that the term ‘shortness’ is now redundant. If short people disappeared off the face the planet tall people would still exist.

Did you get the example I posted earlier about the cup of water?

I’m sorry but I don’t see the relevance of giving an example of a simple biological need (empirical). Nor do I see how a case can be made for something existing in order to appreciate another thing as an argument for the logically necessary existence of evil?

Evil is a proper state; goodness is not. Evil doesn't depend upon the existence of 'good' in order to give it meaning. For example, Murder is evil, but not murder is simply the former possibility not enacted: there isn't a state or condition of not murder. Conceive of the non-existence of evil. What would the state of 'goodness' comprise? How could one be good when it is impossible to be bad? In sum, the state of evil and badness, eg hurt, injury, death etc, exists as a proper state, but 'goodness' is merely a descriptive term that we use for the theoretical absence of that negative state; it is not a state in itself. Therefore God could have created the world with evil absent and no contradiction.

To press the point, conceive of a world without evil, a conception that is logically possible. Now because there is no evil it means that there is no term to describe it; we cannot describe what doesn't exist. So now what do we have? We don't have evil, and nor do we have 'good', that is to say a state that exists in relation to evil, because evil doesn't happen to exist. What we have is a state where the terms 'good' and 'evil' have no meaning. Similarly, we might conceive of another possible world where there is only evil; in fact we will consider ourselves the creator of this possible world. We have created this evil world at the flick of switch. The term 'evil' would of course have no meaning to its inhabitants. Now at the flick of a switch, once more, we could put a stop to the evil. Those who did the killing would stop killing; those who did the robbing would stop robbing; and the volcanoes would stop pouring molten larva over the inhabitants. We've simply stopped the evil; we haven't introduced something called 'good'. The inhabitants didn't suddenly become 'good' to one another but simply ceased doing what they were doing previously. And the mountain didn't become 'good' but simply stopped spewing forth the deadly larva.

 

[idea]

To bad aionis doesnt mean eternal/everlasting/forever and ever etc etc. That BLB lexicon got that definition wrong.

Let me show you how you cant make that word mean "that which always has been and always will be".

If a spirit was a perfect spirit "everlasting" or already an everlasting perfect spirit that means it could never,

first off, had a beginning--that is what everlasting/eternal means
2nd, once this perfect spirit changed to something else you have another beginning for it i.e. change from spirit to human, so therefore it was never an eternal spirit, it was never eternally perfect, it thus had at least two beginnings--one as an eternally perfect spirit then another beginning as a sinning human

So it was never eternally a spirit, and never eternally perfect

LOL - So... you believe that God had a beginning?
#166 = no beginning.
aiōnios is used to describe both God's eternal nature, and our own eternal life. we are eternal in the same way that God is.

Rom 16:26But 1161 now 3568 is made manifest 5319 , and 5037 by 1223 the scriptures 1124 of the prophets 4397, according 2596 to the commandment 2003 of the everlasting 166 God 2316, made known 1107 to 1519 all 3956 nations 1484 for 1519 the obedience 5218 of faith 4102:

 

[idea]

I’m sorry but I don’t see the relevance of giving an example of a simple biological need (empirical). Nor do I see how a case can be made for something existing in order to appreciate another thing as an argument for the logically necessary existence of evil?

Evil is only necessary if you want to gain a full understanding/appreciation of good.

Evil is a proper state; goodness is not. Evil doesn't depend upon the existence of 'good' in order to give it meaning. For example,

Murder is evil, but not murder is simply the former possibility not enacted: there isn't a state or condition of not murder.

Love is not murder.

Is murder evil? Depends.
To murder a murderer is not evil

Everyting is relative.
Is this apple good? Is this life good? Is this person good? To answer any of these questions, you have to compare it to something else.


good, better, best,
happy, happier, happiest

"happiest" means you are better off than happy or happier... happy and happier have to exist for happiest to exist.

What if "happiest" is infinitely / eternally happier than just happy? That makes "just happy" the equiv of horror . Horror exists for happiest to exist.

Either there are stepping stones from lesser to greater ways of living/being, or "all is compound into one". If "all is compound into one" then "happiest" does not exist.

To press the point,

conceive of a world without evil...

In the Garden if Eden Adam and Eve did not have a fullness of joy. They had no appreciation for the paradise they were surrounded with...

Eden was not the "happiest" place/time that existed...

happiest...

1 THE wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the bglory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
(Old Testament | Isaiah35:1 - 10)


Are you infinately joyful every moment over your ability to see? One who understands what "blind" is understands what "seeing" is.
Are you infinately joyful for the use of your legs? One who understands what being lame means understands the joy of legs..
The greater the depths of sorrow before, the greater the depths of happiness later.
last shall be first.
etc. etc. etc.

no infinite sacrifice, no infinite love...
47 ...to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
(New Testament | Luke 7:47)

 

[AK4]

LOL - So... you believe that God had a beginning?
#166 = no beginning.
aiōnios is used to describe both God's eternal nature, and our own eternal life. we are eternal in the same way that God is.

Rom 16:26But 1161 now 3568 is made manifest 5319 , and 5037 by 1223 the scriptures 1124 of the prophets 4397, according 2596 to the commandment 2003 of the everlasting 166 God 2316, made known 1107 to 1519 all 3956 nations 1484 for 1519 the obedience 5218 of faith 4102:

Here is something that explains that verse better than i can [for now]

The Greek word "aionios" does NOT mean "eternal." Verses such as Romans 16:25 totally disprove such asserting:

"Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."
​

Notice that this mystery was which was kept secret is NOW REVEALED! It "WAS kept secret," but NOW it is revealed. How LONG was this secret kept secret? Why, "since the WORLD began," we are told in the King James Bible. But you see, there is a problem here. The Greek word for "world" is "kosmos" (Strong's #2889). But the Greek word translated "world" here in Rom. 16:25 is the Greek word "aionios" which you say MUST MEAN "FOREVER"--And I quote: "...but the 'eonian penalty for the sin' is FOREVER."
Let me make one more statement with regards to translating Greek words into English words that STILL maintain the statement is the verse as being a true statement. I specifically have reference to verses where God is referred to the "AIONIOS" God. Some insist that this MUST be translated "the ETERNAL God" of "the God of Eternity." Not so. That is unscriptural foolishness. Just because it is a true statement to say "the ETERNAL God" does not mean that that is how it SHOULD be translated, just because the statement is true. When translating this verse properly as "the EONIAN God" the statement is still true (that is, God really IS, the "GOD OF THE EONS--He made the eons and He is "the GOD of the eons"). And so why not translate properly and consistently according to what the Holy Spirit SAID, not what translators say is ALSO A TRUE STATEMENT, by CHANGING and ADDING TO the words inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Suppose that since I live in the South, that I want to translate Matt. 10:42 as follows: "And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a GLASS OF ICE COLD TEA only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward."
I could play semantic games and say that in the South it is customary on a hot day to offer a "GLASS OF ICE COLD TEA" rather than "a cup of cold water." After all, the STATEMENT of our Lord's is still TRUE, is it not? Yes, that is correct, it does not change the meaning of the statement IN THIS VERSE. But the fact remains, that the Holy Spirit did NOT inspire the words "glass of ice cold tea!" It is a fallacious translation. It is ADDING TO the word of God. Now it does not apparent harm to call God "the ETERNAL God." That is a TRUE statement, but IT IS ;NOT A TRUE TRANSLATION! And when we make this SAME mistake of translating with reference to punishment for the ages, it becomes NEVER-ENDING, ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, which is a damnable heresy.

 

[idea]

Here is something that explains that verse better than i can [for now]

LOL - why are you so set on trying to prove God is evil?

#1 or #2? Which is it going to be?

1. God did not create everything, God did not create evil.

- God did not create Himself – therefore He did not create everything. John1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If - IF - it was “made” - if it was organized into some better state than it was previously, it was made/transformed by Him, however, some things are not made (God was not made) – some beings/things exist without a beginning, they are self-existent.
– Even though there is a part of us He did not create, He is a Loving, merciful, just God. He wants to adopt us, will do everything in His power save take away our free agency to refine us.
John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
(New Testament | Romans8:15)
We have need for deliverance – not because of anything God has created – but as a result of the self-existent part of us that God is in no way responsible for. Even though He did not create us, He is willing to adopt those who wish to be adopted.


2. God created everything, God created evil.
- God created us to be “wretched men” Romans 7:24 - O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?He deliberately created us imperfectly that we would suffer. He created Satan, He created Hell. God caused that His Son should die, and has created some to spend eternity in torment. Mark9:43 … hell, the fire that never shall be quenched


1 Timothy4:1NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy...

Which description of God sounds like lies in hypocrisy, like doctrines of devils?
1. God is 100% loving, perfect, good. Nothing evil can be traced back to God, God is the author of good, not evil.
2. God is 50% loving, 50% evil. He created good and bad, created some evil people for hell, and some good people for heaven...
Who would Satan have us believe God is?

 

[idea]

We have a spirit. Spirit + body = soul
Our spirit will continue to exist after we die.
Just as our spirit exists after we die, it exists before we are born.
Our spirit will never cease to exist... our spirit has always and will always exist.

We have agency because part of us is self-existent. Part of us was not created by God. There is no cause/effect net by which we can say "We are this way because we were created this way". We were not created to be one way or another - we were not created at all. we have no beginning, we have no end. God has opened up a way in which we can become transfored into something better - without Heavenly Father we would remain unformed.... The unformed part of us did not come from God though... the unformed part had no creation, no beginning...

People seem to understand what "no end" means... why is it then so hard for someone to also understand what "no beginning" means?

 

[AK4]

LOL - why are you so set on trying to prove God is evil?

Im not trying to prove God is evil. Doing so is foolish because He is not. He does use evil though. He Himself doesnt do it. Peolple cant handle this hard scriptural truth and therefore they dont "fear the Lord"


#1 or #2? Which is it going to be?

1. God did not create everything, God did not create evil.

- God did not create Himself – therefore He did not create everything. John1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If - IF - it was “made” it was made by Him, however, some things are not made (God was not made) – some beings/things exist without a beginning, they are self-existent.
– Even though there is a part of us He did not create, He is a Loving, merciful, just God. He wants to adopt us, will do everything in His power save take away our free agency to refine us.
John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
We have need for deliverance – not because of anything God has created – but as a result of the self-existent part of us that God is in no way responsible for.

Apart from God the Father, show me ANYWHERE in scripture that shows something made themselves or brought themselves into being and contradicts the verses stating ALL IS OUT OF/FROM GOD. Good luck. Even the verses you quote says all is out of God. Jesus Christ was made. God the Father wasnt. Show me where someone was made APART from God.

God knows and tells us that He is responsible for everything, yet man [well thanks to satan, but even satan was created by God] invented the myth of freewill to try to take responsibility and be their own god. And they will be judged for this thinking

2. God created everything, God created evil.
- God created us to be “wretched men” Romans 7:24 - O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?He deliberately created us imperfectly that we would suffer. He created Satan, He created Hell. God caused that His Son should die, and has created some to spend eternity in torment. Mark9:43 … hell, the fire that never shall be quenched

He didnt create a hell. Hell is a most blasphemous man-made doctrine and thats it. Hell doesnt and never will exist. And yes He deliberately made everything the way it is why? "Because after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" and "I will do all MY pleasure".

So lets see, there is the Plan of God yet somehow God never actually uses this plan all for the sake of freewill. Blasphemous. Yes God caused/brought it about that His Son will die for His creation, you know, "the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD".

1 Timothy4:1NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy

Now i show you a scripture that directly contradicts what you have been taught by your religion yet it is I who has "a doctrine of devils, speaking in hypocrisy". Lets see you say God doesnt use evil, i say He does

your scriptures:_____________

my scrptures: Here i will just give this one, but if you like i could give you about 50 of hundreds of them
Am 3:6 - Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Which description of God sounds like lies in hypocrisy, lies, like doctrines of devils?
1. God is 100% loving, perfect, good. Nothing evil can be traced back to God, God is the author of good, not evil.
2. God is 50% loving, 50% evil. He created good and bad, created some evil people for hell, and some good people for heaven...
Who would Satan have us believe God is?

Nice try. Sorry my God is 100% love, just because you dont understand His plan and His workings you despise His Word where He mentions He uses evil and just throw them out and put yourself and mankind as a god themselves and try to take on a responsibilty that isnt yours to begin with. Heres another wonderful verse for you

It is a experience of EVIL God has given mankind to humble him (Ecc1:13)

I know you say it is an experience of evil MAN has given themselves to humble themselves.

Or

It is an experience of evil SATAN has given man to humble them

So now tell me which do you choose?

 

[AK4]

Who would Satan have us believe God is?

He has the whole world decieved that they are, thanks to the "greatest gift from God--freewill". Look at how many in the world are so at home with this deception. Again and i quote Satan has the world believe that THEY are their own god, masters of their fate, controllers of their destiny. Think on this

Can the decieved know they are decieved?

 

[idea]

Apart from God the Father, show me ANYWHERE in scripture that shows something made themselves or brought themselves into being

Why Apart from God? Show me ANYWHERE in scripture which states in the beginning God was totally alone - that the universe/spirits/Jesus etc. etc. did not exist.

and contradicts the verses stating ALL IS OUT OF/FROM GOD.

Everything that has been transformed into something better is the work of God.

Jesus Christ was made. God the Father wasnt.

Jesus was transformed, God was not transformed. God never needed to be transformed because He has always been complete/perfect.

God knows and tells us that He is responsible for everything,

He is responsible for everything that is good. He is not responsible for evil.

invented the myth of freewill

so... a Calvanist huh? no free will? We are all a bunch of robots?

Robots can't love, can't be selfless, can't be anything you know... A Calvanist...well, I guess that explains your viewpoint.....

He didnt create a hell. Hell is a most blasphemous man-made doctrine and thats it. Hell doesnt and never will exist.

Satan would love to spread that one around. "Do what you want, nothing bad will ever happen"...

God does not torture people in hell... some people will be eternally confined to being nothing more than spirits though... spirits which have no control over matter, and can therefore not harm anyone.

"Because after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" and "I will do all MY pleasure".

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness
(Old Testament | Psalms 5:4)

God hath no pleasure in wickedness.

So lets see, there is the Plan of God yet somehow God never actually uses this plan all for the sake of freewill. Blasphemous. Yes God caused/brought it about that His Son will die for His creation, you know, "the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD".

?? the plan is in full force because of free will...

LOL, nevermind.... Calvanists.. geesh.

 

[AK4]

Why Apart from God? Show me ANYWHERE in scripture which states in the beginning God was totally alone - that the universe/spirits/Jesus etc. etc. did not exist.

Anywhere? okay


Onkelos translated Genesis 1:1 not “In the beginning,” but “In wisdom.” “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” Scriptures in the Psalms and so on, that said “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” It’s not Genesis 1:1, but it’s the same, “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth and there are several of them. But is that the way Genesis 1:1 could be translated? Well apparently so. When you look and Strong’s definition there is one word at the end of the definition.

“In the beginning” H7225 rê'shîyth
The first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

He says firstfruit, beginning and then at the end it says the “principal thing.”

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing;

Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

Pro 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

Pro 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I (wisdom) love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
Pro 8:19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.

Wisdom is speaking in the first person, “I” wisdom. “I” was with the Lord in the beginning before there ever was any works. “I” was set up… ever the earth was” before there was an earth.

Pro 8:24 When there was no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with waters,
v. 25 Before mountains were settled, Before the hills was, I brought forth.
v. 26 While as yet He had not made the earth, or the fields or the highest parts of the dusts of the world.
v. 27 When He prepared the heavens I was there, when He set a compass upon the face of the earth,
v. 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Who was there with God? [Wisdom] Wisdom! Before anything was made, who was there with God? [Wisdom] Wisdom! Where did it come from? It took a little digging to get this out.

Wisdom is God the Father. Before God could create us and the universe and creatures in His own likeness, He had to know how to do it. Notice in verse 22 "the Lord (Jehovah) possessed Me (remember thats Wisdom speaking --the Father) in the beginning of His way". Verse 24 - 28 show the same thing.

He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it. Before the creation came the master plan and the wisdom to do it. I could go deeper but thatll do for now

 

[AK4]

Everything that has been transformed into something better is the work of God.




Jesus was transformed, God was not transformed. God never needed to be transformed because He has always been complete/perfect.




He is responsible for everything that is good. He is not responsible for evil.

No scriptures? I wonder why.

so... a Calvanist huh? no free will? We are all a bunch of robots?

Robots can't love, can't be selfless, can't be anything you know... A Calvanist...well, I guess that explains your viewpoint.....

Sorry i am far from being a calvinist or a Arminei---something or whatever. Calvin was an evil evil man. Armin... think along the same lines as calvinists also. We are not robots. Do robots have emotions etc etc etc? Calvinists blaspheme God. Just because i know the myth of freewill makes me a calvinist? Some atheists and others know this are they calvinsts too? LOL

Satan would love to spread that one around. "Do what you want, nothing bad will ever happen"...

If Satan spreaded that around He would be teaching more truth than most of these christian denominations out there. And thats sad.

God does not torture people in hell... some people will be eternally confined to being nothing more than spirits though... spirits which have no control over matter, and can therefore not harm anyone.

Really? Jesus became a living spirit, does He not have controll over matter? Want some more examples of angels having control over matter? Check out Revelation

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness
(Old Testament | Psalms5:4)

God hath no pleasure in wickedness.

I have no pleasure in drinking, do i still use it to get a buzz? He has no pleasure in it---thats the good news

?? the plan is in full force because of free will...

You are making statements with no scriptures to back up this. I understand you dont really know the difference between freewill/free choice/free moral agency verses choice

LOL, nevermind.... Calvanists.. geesh.

Far from it. I hold none of there views

 

[idea]

sorry for being curt (just FYI - I currently have 6 kids ages 7-1 at hy house, babysitting for a friend, it's a crazy daycare overhere )

Anywhere? okay


Onkelos translated Genesis 1:1 not “In the beginning,” but “In wisdom.”

In "the" beginning, or in "a" beginning?

That is actually really interesting about wisdom though... :yes:.


13Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
(Old Testament | Proverbs3:13 - 18)

Wisdom is one of the names Heavenly Mother goes by.
see page 4 of http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/MotherInHeaven.pdf

“In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” Scriptures in the Psalms and so on, that said “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” It’s not Genesis 1:1, but it’s the same, “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth and there are several of them. But is that the way Genesis 1:1 could be translated? Well apparently so.

Heavenly Father is forming everything for Wisdom - for our Heavenly Mother - I like it, that's pretty cool. Thanks!

I'm glad you are not fully Calvanist . As for free will, only those with "will power" actually use their wills, and our agency is limited at this point. We earn our freedom - our free will. You are not free to play the piano until after you have practiced and learned how to as an example. The science of free will - thinking of LaPlace Demon stuff? See arguments against LaPlace Demon. The future is set in stone (God knows everything = knows future = future is set in stone) but we set our own future in stone, so it is still our agency

as for the rest... I think you belittle God when you belittle the extent that He is able to transform someone... Yes, it's good to be humble about who we are.. it is also good to have hope and faith in what God can make of us Cheers! It's been fun