If God knew beforehand why did he go through with it?

[Wandered Off]

The argument rests on the assumption that it is impossible for a good God to have a morally sufficient reason to permit evil of the sort we see in the world today. I say that assumption rests on hubris.

It seems to me that the assumption rests on a broad definition of omnipotence. If a being is omnipotent in the sense of being able to do anything regardless of any constraint, then by definition there is always a way around any suffering, irrespective of any possibilities unknown to us.

 

[Willamena]

The real absurdity here is that we should want to eliminate something as useful as pain and suffering. Along with that motivation for improvement goes compassion and medicine, structural skills like engineering and materials engineering, food skills like agriculture and animal husbandry, social skills --heck, pretty much everything there is to being human is motivated by a need to relieve a pain or suffering of some sort.

 

[Wandered Off]

The real absurdity here is that we should want to eliminate something as useful as pain and suffering.

It's only absurd if there isn't some other way to achieve the same usefulness, which broadly defined omnipotence implies.

 

[Willamena]

It's only absurd if there isn't some other way to achieve the same usefulness, which broadly defined omnipotence implies.

And there isn't. The problem with tossing omnipotence into the mix is that "God" has already been limited in power from the get-go --to the "logically possible," to the characteristics carefully chosen and worded in the outline of the argument, and to a particular image of a "being" standing back at the beginning of time and looking forward through time.

 

[Wandered Off]

"God" has already been limited in power from the get-go --to the "logically possible," to the characteristics carefully chosen and worded in the outline of the argument, and to a particular image of a "being" standing back at the beginning of time and looking forward through time.

That may be your image... I don't infer any limits. In fact, it's this very absence of limits that presents the 'problem' in the first place IMO.

Or maybe I once again entirely misunderstood your post.

 

[Willamena]

That may be your image... I don't infer any limits. In fact, it's this very absence of limits that presents the 'problem' in the first place IMO.

Or maybe I once again entirely misunderstood your post.

The image and limits I mentioned are inherent to the argument. "God" that has "foreknowledge" and time to act is not the Creator of time, but subject to time. The "being" that executes the world with willful intent is not being the world in its execution. Each assumption --philosophical and otherwise --that the argument rests upon is a part of the particular picture painted in which the inevitable conclusion is nestled. But the conclusion is only inevitable when nestled in that particular picture.

 

[AK4]

This question is for all you who are believers in God

These question has been lingering over my head for a very long time.

If God is all knowing, can foresee the future and prophecy things before they happen why did he allow sin to enter the world? Why did he create Lucifer knowing he would become Satan? Why did he put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden if he knew Adam and Eve would be tricked by the serpent?

If you are believer in God and you know the answer, do let me know as to be honest im racking my brain over the concept of a loving creator who had prior knowledge of his creations demise and let it happen anyway?

There is a simple answer to this, but some may need a long explanation [some people just are too stubborn to logic i guess]. Anyway here you go. Contrast. Thats it. In order to know one thing you have to experience/know the other thus

It is an experience of EVIL God has given humanity to HUMBLE him [Ecc 1:13]

For the creature was made subject to vanity [greek definition: what is devoid of truth and appropriateness, perverseness, depravity,frailty, want of vigour] , not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [Rom 8:20]

In the garden Adam and Eve supposedly only knew good and no evil---ate the apple---now they know some good and now are experiencing evil "full throttle" so when God says He will make everything "anew" and all good, they will appreciate and absolutely "be like one of Us, knowing good and evil".

 

[LittleNipper]

But it's not my picture! You may not have noticed, but my argument is that the entire Adam and Eve/Fall confection is absurd, and that is to say logically impossible.

And you understand to perfection so as not be mistaken? How do you know? What do you base this on? What happens if you are wrong?

 

[Wandered Off]

The image and limits I mentioned are inherent to the argument.

I think that any such limits, if present, appear on both sides of the argument. Rejecting the PoE on the basis of these inherent images is no more or less sound than rejecting the omnipotence/omnibenevolence claims the PoE attempts to refute.

 

[Willamena]

I think that any such limits, if present, appear on both sides of the argument. Rejecting the PoE on the basis of these inherent images is no more or less sound than rejecting the omnipotence/omnibenevolence claims the PoE attempts to refute.

Both sides who use similar argument, yes. :yes:

But there are much prettier versions of the PoE, the image of "God", and Creation (even ones that are actually allowed to make sense ).

 

[Breathe]

-- Mod Post --

Please refrain from making off-topic personal remarks on the forum.


-- End of Mod Post --​

 

[Dunemeister]

It seems to me that the assumption rests on a broad definition of omnipotence. If a being is omnipotent in the sense of being able to do anything regardless of any constraint, then by definition there is always a way around any suffering, irrespective of any possibilities unknown to us.

Unless suffering is somehow necessary to the purposes of a good God. The moral maturation of humanity may require it.

 

[James Humphreys]

Let me ask you a question. What would you say was the purpose of our creation?

Why did God create? Obviously, I wasn't there, but the following is my conception. I agree with the picture that sees God's most essential attribute as being love, or the impulse to love. Stated simply, God was lonely, and created all things as a projection of his own nature, so that by being able to see and relate to all creations, he could feel joy through satisfying his desire to love.

But I don't see evil as being part of, or necessary, for the fulfillment of God's purpose. Perhaps the risk of evil was inherent in creating beings with free will, and a responsibility to take part in their own self-creation, but it wasn't inevitable. People are meant to be fully God's children, in his complete image, with the same capacity for freedom and love as God. But in that we have not been able to realize that image, God's purpose is still incomplete. And I would say that God himself is suffering and in pain, even more than we suffer, due to the violation of his purpose.

 

[DallasApple]

This question is for all you who are believers in God

These question has been lingering over my head for a very long time.

If God is all knowing, can foresee the future and prophecy things before they happen why did he allow sin to enter the world? Why did he create Lucifer knowing he would become Satan? Why did he put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden if he knew Adam and Eve would be tricked by the serpent?

If you are believer in God and you know the answer, do let me know as to be honest im racking my brain over the concept of a loving creator who had prior knowledge of his creations demise and let it happen anyway?

I dont know I cant figure that one out either..

Closest I can get is we know we are all going to die if we are born into this life and we still have children anyway.

Love

Dallas

 

[dust1n]

Ultimately, how can god be all knowing (knowing the effect of every object to every particular human, say, you.) all powerful (make the world exactly how it is knowing how every minor detail would effect you and make you into what you are.) and all loving (because evil exists.)

If God knows you will end up going to hell. Why make you, so you can go to hell?
If you have free will.. and God knows you are going to hell.. you are going to hell.

I've wondered this myself from age fifteen. The best answer ever I ever got, "This is a problem of logic, and God works above logic."

C.S.Lewis-esque at best.

 

[DallasApple]

Ultimately, how can god be all knowing (knowing the effect of every object to every particular human, say, you.) all powerful (make the world exactly how it is knowing how every minor detail would effect you and make you into what you are.) and all loving (because evil exists.)

If God knows you will end up going to hell. Why make you, so you can go to hell?
If you have free will.. and God knows you are going to hell.. you are going to hell.

I've wondered this myself from age fifteen. The best answer ever I ever got, "This is a problem of logic, and God works above logic."

C.S.Lewis-esque at best.

I personally dont believe there is a hell.And yes Im a Christian and I dont want to argue about it.

Love

Dallas

 

[dust1n]

I personally dont believe there is a hell.And yes Im a Christian and I dont want to argue about it.

Love

Dallas

Congrats, know a little about the Bible before King James was revised 1400 times?
Love God, that's cool, whatever. But very happy there is one less Christian cheering on eternal inferno for third-world children. As if this world wasn't hell enough, eh.

 

[dust1n]

And happy birthday!

 

[DallasApple]

Congrats, know a little about the Bible before King James was revised 1400 times?
Love God, that's cool, whatever. But very happy there is one less Christian cheering on eternal inferno for third-world children. As if this world wasn't hell enough, eh.

I know a "little " about Christianity *instinctively" before there was even a "Bible".

And listen its not even "3rd world" children..You should hear the "Christians" (modern day) asking if the kid that died in a car crash was "saved" or not when I reported a tragic accident of a kid up at my sons school..They were WORRIED about his soul.

I wasnt "cheering " .They werent "cheering " either what is sad they were "crying" because he wasnt "saved".

I've seen the same thing happen with elderlies.The children of elderlies and the Christians say "was he or she "saved".(when they die)

In fact I want to tell them to go take a walk off a short bridge or maybe go straigth up and make a u-turn..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

And happy birthday!

Thanks hunny..

Love

Dallas