If god knew.....

[JustWondering]

When the serpent told Eve that she wouldn't die when she ate the fruit, he meant physical death.

Because that is what death is. God did not say they would be changed after they ate the fruit and he'd kick them out of the house, he said they would die. I am not going to subscribe to the notion that I need some sort of holy spirit decoder ring to make sense of the scriptures. If your scriptures do not make sense and cause more confusion then provide useful knowledge they are useless. God says plain as day in Genesis that they will die within a day of eating the fruit. YOU can INTERPRET the genesis story anyway you like only because it is vague, nonsensical, and lacking in information. Like much of the bible.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Because that is what death is. God did not say they would be changed after they ate the fruit and he'd kick them out of the house, he said they would die. I am not going to subscribe to the notion that I need some sort of holy spirit decoder ring to make sense of the scriptures. If your scriptures do not make sense and cause more confusion then provide useful knowledge they are useless. God says plain as day in Genesis that they will die within a day of eating the fruit. YOU can INTERPRET the genesis story anyway you like only because it is vague, nonsensical, and lacking in information. Like much of the bible.

'Holy spirit decoder ring'? I wish. And I like how you've called them 'my' scriptures.

That is what it says in the Bible. And you know what? YOU have INTERPRETED it as useless.

Vague, nonsensical, lacking information (I believe that's an extension of vague)...I agree on all three counts. What is your problem with that? Were you expecting something else?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

in other words, the realization of self = sin

I don't think so. Please define your terms here.

they hid because of their nakedness...
is being naked a sin?
why would anyone feel shame of their nakedness?

It's not a sin, but it is very uncomfortable. How would you like it if you suddenly had no clothes on in a public place? Or if someone told things about you that you never wanted to get out? Being naked isn't just about physically naked. Emotionally, mentally, psychologically are all forms of nakedness that can happen to us. When these parts of us are revealed, we can fell very ashamed. Is it wrong to feel ashamed? We feel it regardless.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yea, I'm still waiting on a response for this won as well.

 

[Orias]

I don't think so. Please define your terms here.


It's not a sin, but it is very uncomfortable. How would you like it if you suddenly had no clothes on in a public place? Or if someone told things about you that you never wanted to get out? Being naked isn't just about physically naked. Emotionally, mentally, psychologically are all forms of nakedness that can happen to us. When these parts of us are revealed, we can fell very ashamed. Is it wrong to feel ashamed? We feel it regardless.

Some people are just fine with being naked in front of others. Nudists, nude beaches, porn stars? If your not comfortable with yourself, then of course you would be uncomfortable in front of others if you were naked (yes physically and perhaps mentally). If you are uncomfortable in this type of situation then why would you follow it? Or better yet, why don't you do something about it? Instead of blame all of your problems and inconsistancies on something you made up.

Why do you ask if it is "wrong" to feel ashamed? That is just like asking if it is "wrong" to hate. We feel it regardless.

Dualism at its finest. Yes, death is the opposite of life. But you can be dead and still live.

Interesting.

But no you can't, thats why there is life and death, if you could be both then there wouldn't be a death to follow life.

Unless you are taking your metaphor literally...

Then yes, one could be intrinsically dead while being "alive", but then the motive behind this meaning is nothing, because that is where you return to.

 

[Luminous]

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Jn 10:18

But clearly he CAN be killed by mere human beings if he allows it...and he has.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

If you are uncomfortable in this type of situation then why would you follow it? Or better yet, why don't you do something about it? Instead of blame all of your problems and inconsistencies on something you made up.

1. Why indeed. If we are never uncomfortable, how can we learn to deal with it?
2. I am.
3. Whom (or what) did I blame?

Why do you ask if it is "wrong" to feel ashamed? That is just like asking if it is "wrong" to hate. We feel it regardless.

That's what I said.

Interesting.

But no you can't, thats why there is life and death, if you could be both then there wouldn't be a death to follow life.

Those who think both life and death can't exist at the same time have not lived.

Unless you are taking your metaphor literally...

Then yes, one could be intrinsically dead while being "alive", but then the motive behind this meaning is nothing, because that is where you return to.

You are dust and unto dust you shall return.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

If God so fiercely desires worship and complete obedience why would he purposely create beings that defy him?

Your premise is false. You are confusing who is demanding the worship of whom.

 

[JustWondering]

Your premise is false. You are confusing who is demanding the worship of whom.

Ummm...nope, you're the one who is confused.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Ummm...nope, you're the one who is confused.

Okay, lets walk through this. If God created us, and God is all-powerful, and above all, God wants to be worshiped and obeyed, he would create beings that could not disobey him. It is only logical.
But he did not. He created beings that could disobey him.
That leaves us with two conclusions.
God is just an idiot and didn't create us right.
Or
The premise that God wants us to obey him is false, and he created us the way we are for a reason.

I find that going with the second is much more beneficial, but you can go with whichever you please.

 

[JustWondering]

God is just an idiot and didn't create us right.
Or
The premise that God wants us to obey him is false, and he created us the way we are for a reason.

I find that going with the second is much more beneficial, but you can go with whichever you please.

I am sure all the suffering and starving people in third world countries would love to hear all about why god hates them and treats them like dirt. I'm sure all the victims of natural disasters and their families find great comfort knowing god considers us his playthings to do with as he pleases. Such a ray of sunshine in an otherwise merciless and unforgiving world.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I am sure all the suffering and starving people in third world countries would love to hear all about why god hates them and treats them like dirt. I'm sure all the victims of natural disasters and their families find great comfort knowing god considers us his playthings to do with as he pleases. Such a ray of sunshine in an otherwise merciless and unforgiving world.

Please fill in the steps of your logic here, because I'm not seeing it.

 

[JustWondering]

Please fill in the steps of your logic here, because I'm not seeing it.

Thats my line. The only purpose god has for humanity that I can find in the bible is for us to worship and obey him. Thats it. If you succeed in gaining his favor you get to live in a magical paradise for all eternity after you die. Since god knows us better than we know ourselves what is the point of letting people suffer in this world? The only conclusion I can concieve is that he is a saddist.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Thats my line. The only purpose god has for humanity that I can find in the bible is for us to worship and obey him. Thats it.

Examples?

If you succeed in gaining his favor you get to live in a magical paradise for all eternity after you die.

Define 'gaining his favor'.

Since god knows us better than we know ourselves what is the point of letting people suffer in this world? The only conclusion I can concieve is that he is a saddist.

God may know, but that really doesn't mean anything. We don't know. How do we learn what we don't know? Well, how did you learn to swim? How did you learn to ride a bike?
You get in the water. You get on a bike.
So, how do we learn what we don't know? We experience what we don't know.
I'm sorry to say it, but that involves suffering. Life involves suffering, through our own fault or not. Regardless, it's not something to resent so much. Resenting God because he 'allows' this suffering won't make it go away. He's 'allowing' you to resent him...what does that say?

 

[JustWondering]

strikevipreMKII,
I believe you have a different image of god then what is portrayed in the bible. I could dig around in the bible and dreg up quotes from it to show how jacked up god and his thinking are but I am lazy. The god described in the bible never gives rational justifications for his commandments, but he does expect to be obeyed. Failure to obey = death. What kind of loving creator kills his creations? The god of the bible will punish my resentment with death on the judgement day. The suffering we experience in this world is punishment for adam and eve's disobidience. That is in the very beginning of the bible by the way. Easy to find. The suffering of this world is not preparation for some bigger, grander destiny. It is simply suffering to punish us for not behaving.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Again, you are mistaking who is wanting you do obey whom.

 

[JustWondering]

Again, you are mistaking who is wanting you do obey whom.

You are starting to sound like a broken record now. Obviously you believe in a god of your own creation, not the one described in the bible. Since we are not talking about the same deity and I have no interest in learning about the one you made up, further discourse on this subject is pointless. See you around.

 

[Wotan]

You are starting to sound like a broken record now. Obviously you believe in a god of your own creation, not the one described in the bible. Since we are not talking about the same deity and I have no interest in learning about the one you made up, further discourse on this subject is pointless. See you around.

Yeah this line of argument is just nonsense. These posts show a complete lack of coherent thought. Or this poster just makes things up as he goes.

Either way - Ignore works.

 

[Orias]

1. Why indeed. If we are never uncomfortable, how can we learn to deal with it?
2. I am.
3. Whom (or what) did I blame?

You can, you just have to accept what you are.

And what are doing about it?

Sin, Satan, its all the same isn't it? Where do man made problems come from?

That's what I said.

No it isn't.

Those who think both life and death can't exist at the same time have not lived.

I beg to differ.

Death exist because of Life, since it has been perceieved, it is. They exist together, so one who thinks of both life and death can exist at the same time, as death only is, for those who acknowledge it.

You are dust and unto dust you shall return.

Doesn't sound very catholic

 

[strikeviperMKII]

[/list]
You can, you just have to accept what you are.

And what are doing about it?

Sin, Satan, its all the same isn't it? Where do man made problems come from?

1. Not sure what you mean.
2. I am learning to live with being uncomfortable. That's all we can do, really.
3. If you want it to be, then sin and Satan are the same. Where? I'm surprised you have to ask that question, as the answer is in the question. Man-made problems come from man. (hence the 'man-made' part)

No it isn't.

Okay, it wasn't then.

I beg to differ.

Death exist because of Life, since it has been perceieved, it is. They exist together, so one who thinks of both life and death can exist at the same time, as death only is, for those who acknowledge it.

You have perceived life? If you have done that, then you must also have perceived death, as that is the state before life. Otherwise, you have only perceived death.

Doesn't sound very catholic

No it doesn't. But literally true nonetheless.