If god knew.....

[ninerbuff]

ninerbuff : " I've NEVER EVER heard of a dead physical body, rise up after 3 days except for this fairy tale. A live physical body in all medical terms ain't dead."

" A live physical body in all medical terms ain't dead."

smart... but your question how is jesus' death a sacrificial death is answered in itself : he died physically... that is the requirement of a sacraficial "death" The blood was needed :

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

bible scripture ain't proof. Wasn't moses like 600 years old? Use common sense here............even with all the medical technology we have, a 200 year old man is unheard of. A 100 year old man is possible. But 600? 500? 400? I'm sure you're fully convinced that moses was as old as the bible says, but it don't mean squat if we compare relative age where we are actually living longer now.
Come up with actual proof.

 

[search the scriptures]

ninerbuff : "Well if no man could take it, then why not just lay down and die. Why even bother going through the torture of crucifiction? So that we can cry and pity him?"

"Why even bother going through the torture of crucifiction?"

do you think the lamb(animal) headed to the slaughter and picked the degree of sufferings it would endure? the lamb(animal) was at the mercy of the killers free will and choice of slaughter..

Jesus unlike a lamb(animal) is divine. He is symbolized as a lamb headed for the slaughter. But Jesus knew his death would be("torture of crucifiction") before he endured. he still willingly out of love endured it after saying:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 10:17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[ninerbuff]

ninerbuff : "Well if no man could take it, then why not just lay down and die. Why even bother going through the torture of crucifiction? So that we can cry and pity him?"

"Why even bother going through the torture of crucifiction?"

do you think the lamb(animal) headed to the slaughter and picked the degree of sufferings it would endure? the lamb(animal) was at the mercy of the killers free will and choice of slaughter..

Jesus unlike a lamb(animal) is divine. He is symbolized as a lamb headed for the slaughter. But Jesus knew his death would be("torture of crucifiction") before he endured. he still willingly out of love endured it after saying:

Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 10:17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So if no man can take it, and only he can take his own life, then that's suicide.

 

[search the scriptures]

" only he can take his own life"

more like only he can lay down(for a cause) his life, because he has the power to take it back, that is the God's will

 

[ninerbuff]

" only he can take his own life"

more like only he can lay down(for a cause) his life, because he has the power to take it back, that is the God's will

Ahaha. The actual scripture states "only he can take his own life" (which is suicide) and you decipher it and become an apologetic. Classic. Make it fit your belief.:sleep:

 

[sojourner]

Take some viagra and call in the morning.

You're projecting -- or overcompensating...

 

[indian tea]

maybe God likes zombies?

 

[indian tea]

I have never gotten anything but double talk and mental gymnastics in reply to my questioning god sending himself to earth as his son to save mankind from the inability to follow the rules that god set up knowing before he created Adam that man would not be able to follow the rules he was going to set up.

Seems to me that god purposely set man up to fail.

God must be a naughty man

 

[sojourner]

And guess why it's asked. It's seldom answered, but rather tap danced around just as you're doing here. Dismissing a point on grounds that its superficial, a "cheap jab" in this case, is a old worn dodge. Why not just try addressing it? Unless, of course . . . .

Why do you care?! If you don't believe, why in the world would it make any difference to you? Why waste your time? Unless, of course ...

This isn't a dodge. The question as raised has no answer, because it's a non-issue. Here, we have to assume that 1) Jesus existed, 2) Jesus died, 3) Jesus was resurrected and 4) This was according to "God's plan." If we don't assume these things, the argument is pointless. Add to that a widely-varying understanding of what constitutes "God's plan." Is this something that God carefully orchestrated? Or is it something that was simply inevitable, given how God designed the universe to operate? What is the impact of God's omniscience here? Do we know? Or have an idea? Are those understandings and ideas congruent with those of the various authors of the accounts (remember, original Mark had no resurrection account, per se)? All of that necessitates deeper discussion than any of us want to take the time to explore here. None of that, apparently, is of any interest to your side of the fence. so why waste time talking around it at all?

 

[sojourner]

Well if no man could take it, then why not just lay down and die. Why even bother going through the torture of crucifiction? So that we can cry and pity him?

No, so that his point could be advanced. The human power base presented a pretty stiff obstacle. It was they that plotted his demise. It was they that set up the kangaroo court. It was they that really pushed the issue. Jesus, in order to maintain the validity of his message, would have had to have hidden from the authorities in order to remain alive. To hide from them would have constituted an abrogation of 1) his own authority in the eyes of the population and 2) the truth of his message. Humanity forced God's hand, since God chooses to operate through human agency, in this case.

 

[McBell]

mestimia : "Which proves that god can be killed by mere mortal humans..."

only if he (according to the bible) :
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

only if God so wills to be killed by man in the form of a man:
Joh 10:17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Yet mere mortal humans killed him.
They killed him dead.

Or perhaps you have changed your mind?

 

[McBell]

" only he can take his own life"

more like only he can lay down(for a cause) his life, because he has the power to take it back, that is the God's will

Ah, so mere mortal man did not kill him after all...
He committed suicide.

 

[McBell]

that jesus was going to die for our sins, and that resurrection was going to happen, then the question is how is this a "sacrifice" if the end result was jesus being raised from the dead? It's like he never died then.

I have never gotten anything but double talk and mental gymnastics in reply to my questioning god sending himself to earth as his son to save mankind from the inability to follow the rules that god set up knowing before he created Adam that man would not be able to follow the rules he was going to set up.

Here is a prime example of what I am talking about in my above quoted post:

Why do you care?! If you don't believe, why in the world would it make any difference to you? Why waste your time? Unless, of course ...

This isn't a dodge. The question as raised has no answer, because it's a non-issue. Here, we have to assume that 1) Jesus existed, 2) Jesus died, 3) Jesus was resurrected and 4) This was according to "God's plan." If we don't assume these things, the argument is pointless. Add to that a widely-varying understanding of what constitutes "God's plan." Is this something that God carefully orchestrated? Or is it something that was simply inevitable, given how God designed the universe to operate? What is the impact of God's omniscience here? Do we know? Or have an idea? Are those understandings and ideas congruent with those of the various authors of the accounts (remember, original Mark had no resurrection account, per se)? All of that necessitates deeper discussion than any of us want to take the time to explore here. None of that, apparently, is of any interest to your side of the fence. so why waste time talking around it at all?

 

[ninerbuff]

No, so that his point could be advanced. The human power base presented a pretty stiff obstacle. It was they that plotted his demise. It was they that set up the kangaroo court. It was they that really pushed the issue. Jesus, in order to maintain the validity of his message, would have had to have hidden from the authorities in order to remain alive. To hide from them would have constituted an abrogation of 1) his own authority in the eyes of the population and 2) the truth of his message. Humanity forced God's hand, since God chooses to operate through human agency, in this case.

I don't buy that humanity forced god's hand though if he is the all powerful. I would think that if you're a believer, that god had the power to manipulate this from the get go.

 

[McBell]

I don't buy that humanity forced god's hand though if he is the all powerful. I would think that if you're a believer, that god had the power to manipulate this from the get go.

Not to mention the fact that most Christians believe that god is all knowing....

 

[sojourner]

I have never gotten anything but double talk and mental gymnastics in reply to my questioning god sending himself to earth as his son to save mankind from the inability to follow the rules that god set up knowing before he created Adam that man would not be able to follow the rules he was going to set up.

the problem is, the assumption is incorrect. Therefore the whole argument you're trying to make is moot. We can't discuss it, because there's nothing to discuss. It's like accusing a giraffe of being fundamentally wrong because it doesn't taste like an apple. What are we discussing? The qualities of apples, the nature of giraffes, or the discernability of the human palate?

This really has nothing to do with "breaking the 'rules.'" Therefore, since your premise has nothing in common with a proper Biblical concept, it can't be argued from the Biblical perspective to which you want to hold us. And if we stray from "the Bible," then we're accused of "picking-and-choosing what to believe." If you want to discuss theology, I'm all yours. If you want to argue from some other paradigm that has nothing to do with 1) the Bible, 2) Christian faith, or 3) theology, I'm not interested.

 

[sojourner]

I don't buy that humanity forced god's hand though if he is the all powerful. I would think that if you're a believer, that god had the power to manipulate this from the get go.

Well, the US is militarily "all powerful." We could utterly destroy the world, if we wanted to. We choose not to, however. Just because God is omnipotent doesn't mean that God must use that power all the time, in every instance. God chooses to limit God's actions in favor of cultivating a relationship with humanity. Of course God "has the power." But manipulation is a human paradigm, not a Divine paradigm (in Judeo-Xian theology).

 

[sojourner]

Not to mention the fact that most Christians believe that god is all knowing....

So...? What's your point?

 

[Orias]

Ok, Orias, its apparent that I am wasting my time here, peace.

Because you can't get any where?

 

[McBell]

So...? What's your point?

The point is that god already knew before he set up the 613 rules that man would not be able to succeed.
He set up the 613 rules anyway.
Thus god purposely set man up to fail.