If god knew.....

[ninerbuff]

that jesus was going to die for our sins, and that resurrection was going to happen, then the question is how is this a "sacrifice" if the end result was jesus being raised from the dead? It's like he never died then.

 

[McBell]

I have never gotten anything but double talk and mental gymnastics in reply to my questioning god sending himself to earth as his son to save mankind from the inability to follow the rules that god set up knowing before he created Adam that man would not be able to follow the rules he was going to set up.

Seems to me that god purposely set man up to fail.

 

[MEMNOCK]

Its all a metaphor… the whole death/rebirth display in Christianity was nothing new…It took place in other myths before Christianity was ever created…It actually has a much more complex meaning than most people know.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Also, if Jesus was God in the flesh, capable of relying on his divine nature and powers for such things as turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead, etc., then would physical torture and death really be that big of a deal to Him?

I mean, what's the point of being a man-god anyway if not to be stronger, more couragious, more capable of withstanding pain and suffering than mere mortals? I have heard stories of the treatment Jesus endured at the end, and I'm sure such an experience would have been horrific for any mere mortal of a man . . . but Jesus could walk on water, right? Jesus was divine. I mean, granted, I would have said, "Uncle", after the first lash with a whip, but I ain't immortal.

 

[Skwim]

Issues like this simply point up the fact that all things considered Christianity simply can't make sense. Christians believe A, B, and C, which don't make sense in light of their belief in X, Y, and Z. But such contradictions are never a problem because most Christians never consider them or when confronted just change the subject. It's amazing the extent of self inflicted denial the mind can operate under.

 

[ninerbuff]

Also, if Jesus was God in the flesh, capable of relying on his divine nature and powers for such things as turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead, etc., then would physical torture and death really be that big of a deal to Him?

I mean, what's the point of being a man-god anyway if not to be stronger, more couragious, more capable of withstanding pain and suffering than mere mortals? I have heard stories of the treatment Jesus endured at the end, and I'm sure such an experience would have been horrific for any mere mortal of a man . . . but Jesus could walk on water, right? Jesus was divine. I mean, granted, I would have said, "Uncle", after the first lash with a whip, but I ain't immortal.

Yep, yep. Which then begs the question, "If there really was no suffering, then how could there have been a sacrifice?"
pwned

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If religion made sense, then most atheists would be religious.

 

[Orias]

I have never gotten anything but double talk and mental gymnastics in reply to my questioning god sending himself to earth as his son to save mankind from the inability to follow the rules that god set up knowing before he created Adam that man would not be able to follow the rules he was going to set up.

Seems to me that god purposely set man up to fail.

What a jerk.

No wonder nobody likes him.

"Hell must be a pretty swell spot, because the guys that invented religion have sure been trying hard to keep everybody else out." Al Capone (Properly sited from the Devil's Notebook-Anton LaVey).

Rege Satanas!

 

[Atomist]

If religion made sense, then most atheists would be religious.

false... and I'll tell you why... things can still make sense, but still be mythology. To illustrate this point, the concepts of unicorns are logically consistent and makes sense (to the extent that it's just a horse with a horn), but to believe in it would be absurd.

 

[Zadok]

that jesus was going to die for our sins, and that resurrection was going to happen, then the question is how is this a "sacrifice" if the end result was jesus being raised from the dead? It's like he never died then.

Part of the problem many have with religious teaching and principles is their own ignorance of simple terms. Anciently sacrifice meant something quite different. The root of sacrifice is the term sacred – to sacrifice something meant to make that something sacred or holy. Many people have forgotten the meaning and come to believe that sacrifice means to give something up. It is only given up if an individual is not holy – in such case once something becomes holy it must be separated from that which is not holy. Thus Jesus did not forfeit his life but in offering his life as a sacrifice he made possible other’s to be holy, sacred or one with him.

Zadok

 

[Zadok]

I have never gotten anything but double talk and mental gymnastics in reply to my questioning god sending himself to earth as his son to save mankind from the inability to follow the rules that god set up knowing before he created Adam that man would not be able to follow the rules he was going to set up.

Seems to me that god purposely set man up to fail.

I could not agree more - the whole concept and doctrine of the Trinity is so full of contradictions there is no way to understand such things of confusion. G-d is not a G-d of confusion. G-d the Father cannot be corrupted or die and therefore he sent his beloved son, Jesus Christ according to the type and shadow of Abraham sacrificing his willing son Isaac – which when the metaphor for sacrifice was made the sacrifice was prevented by an angel.

Zadok

 

[Zadok]

false... and I'll tell you why... things can still make sense, but still be mythology. To illustrate this point, the concepts of unicorns are logically consistent and makes sense (to the extent that it's just a horse with a horn), but to believe in it would be absurd.

This is very illogical. Something is either logical or it is not logical. If something is true but seems illogical then it is because the truth is not understood. If something seems logical that is not true it is only because the truth is not really understood.

If logic is not connected to truth then you must explain why you think to use logic to establish any truth?

Zadok

 

[javajo]

IF GOD KNEW that jesus was going to die for our sins, and that resurrection was going to happen, then the question is how is this a "sacrifice" if the end result was jesus being raised from the dead? It's like he never died then.

Well, he did die and suffered in a human body. If you or I died so brutally, for a cause we held dear, we would probably consider it a sacrifice, might even be upset if people in our cause did not recognize us. I am glad that God so loved us that he did die for all our sins and that he offers eternal life for free to anyone who trusts him. Jesus himself said he would be killed and rise again for he is life. He had to die in our place for we are sinners and the penalty is death, so he died and paid the penalty in full.

 

[ninerbuff]

Part of the problem many have with religious teaching and principles is their own ignorance of simple terms. Anciently sacrifice meant something quite different. The root of sacrifice is the term sacred – to sacrifice something meant to make that something sacred or holy. Many people have forgotten the meaning and come to believe that sacrifice means to give something up. It is only given up if an individual is not holy – in such case once something becomes holy it must be separated from that which is not holy. Thus Jesus did not forfeit his life but in offering his life as a sacrifice he made possible other’s to be holy, sacred or one with him.

Zadok

So until he gave up his life, he wasn't sacred or holy?

 

[ninerbuff]

Well, he did die and suffered in a human body. If you or I died so brutally, for a cause we held dear, we would probably consider it a sacrifice, might even be upset if people in our cause did not recognize us. I am glad that God so loved us that he did die for all our sins and that he offers eternal life for free to anyone who trusts him. Jesus himself said he would be killed and rise again for he is life. He had to die in our place for we are sinners and the penalty is death, so he died and paid the penalty in full.

How can god die? If his entity just resided in a human body, maybe the body perished, but god didn't die. So how is that sacrifice?
I akin it to like sitting in a car. If I get in an accident and the car gets totaled, then the car is gone, but I'm still around. No matter how bad the car got damaged, I was okay.

 

[jmvizanko]

If his entity just resided in a human body, maybe the body perished, but god didn't die. So how is that sacrifice?

Better yet, how does that not make god a masochist? He sent himself to be tortured.

 

[Orias]

Better yet, how does that not make god a masochist? He sent himself to be tortured.

I think you would find that many people would find not only agree that God is a masochist, but is also sadistic.

Which is pretty much the same thing isn't it?

 

[javajo]

How can god die? If his entity just resided in a human body, maybe the body perished, but god didn't die. So how is that sacrifice?
I akin it to like sitting in a car. If I get in an accident and the car gets totaled, then the car is gone, but I'm still around. No matter how bad the car got damaged, I was okay.

Same as when we die, our body dies, its like cutting your hair, we do not care about that hair we cut off, its gone. So with our body, we cast it off but our spirit lives on. Jesus' spirit lived on, too, he sacrificed his body, for by his blood our sins were paid for. Then he raised his body to life again. He will raise all whose bodies now sleep that have trusted in him. Death has lost its sting.

 

[Skwim]

Same as when we die, our body dies, its like cutting your hair, we do not care about that hair we cut off, its gone. So with our body, we cast it off but our spirit lives on. Jesus' spirit lived on, too, he sacrificed his body, for by his blood our sins were paid for. Then he raised his body to life again. He will raise all whose bodies now sleep that have trusted in him. Death has lost its sting.

So Jesus' spirit is something that is not god? And what kind of sacrifice is it when the plan from the very beginning at the virgin birth was to take up the form of human flesh in order to leave it? And this also goes for the absurd notion of "shedding his blood for us," which again is putting the Jesus form of god on a pedestal. When a god chooses to do X it hardly merits comparison to a human who has no choice in the matter. I suppose one could claim that while on the cross Jesus was in actual pain, but as god that would have been his choice, so it hardly merits any awe, wonder, or sense of sacrifice. I can't feel sorry for the idiot who deliberately smashes his thumb with a hammer.

The crux of the entire Christian issue is that god obviously wanted--needed--the adoration and supplication of mere humans to what, make him feel good about himself? Otherwise why go through the charade of the Jesus event? If people needed saving all god would have had to do is snap his fingers and *POOF,* mission accomplished. But no, god wanted to be worshiped. I'll give you one guess as to what we call people who want the same. Sorry, but at its core Christianity is a myth that makes no more sense--in some cases far less senses---than the other ancient myths. It's a poorly written religion; poorly staged; and very badly presented. Not to say it doesn't sell, but then so do cigarettes and heroin.

 

[McBell]

Same as when we die, our body dies, its like cutting your hair, we do not care about that hair we cut off, its gone. So with our body, we cast it off but our spirit lives on. Jesus' spirit lived on, too, he sacrificed his body, for by his blood our sins were paid for. Then he raised his body to life again. He will raise all whose bodies now sleep that have trusted in him. Death has lost its sting.

Define "spirit"