Whatever you say, my Friend.
It's obvious reading further up the page this isn't going to really go anywhere.
You feel your way. I feel mine.
It's really not worth harshing your gig or mine.
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If i say am christian..
- Thread starter chinu
- Start date
Whatever you say, my Friend.
It's obvious reading further up the page this isn't going to really go anywhere.
You feel your way. I feel mine.
It's really not worth harshing your gig or mine.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Of course they can. It won't help but they can. I can call myself Mr President, buy that will not enable me to veto legislation.
No it is absolute and imperative.
No it doesn't. Becomeing a Christian is identical in Catholicism and Protestantism. It is afterwords that differences appear. Those two make up 90% of Christianity. Most differences involve more secondary issues like music in Church or transubstination.
Since Jesus said all that are born again by grace through faith belong to him and the church then that is the criteria. Our secondary differences are incidental concerning becoming a Christian. I reject the tone of these statements. They seem to imply that since some differences exist let's all give it up as meaningless. If that is the case the practice of law, medicine, physics, mathematics, politics etc... must be given up as well. I was spiritually born again (saved) by faith because I did not listen to statements like this.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
If this issue is not woth hashing out then what issue is. This issue is the most profound concept in human history, at stake is everything. I think that deserves more scholarship than a punt.
If you want to enlighten me with your knowledge and message go ahead, bub... it is important after all.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
First let me make sure you were claiming what it seemed like you were. Universalism is a label for a non-biblical doctrine that claims that eventually every one will be in Heaven. Is this the same concept as what you were suggesting? If not can you clarify in what ways your concept differs from the existing one?If you want to enlighten me with your knowledge and message go ahead, bub... it is important after all.
I believe in Universalism from the stand point you perceive me to be mentioning.
However, I also mean Universalism in the manner that Knowledge and Awareness of God, through Christ, is even bigger than the form and face from which seeing we understand and grow closer to The Divine Presence, Jesus.
For what it's worth explaining, there ya go.
Looking forward to a lovely and likely reply as to why I am wrong et al....
:namaste
However, I also mean Universalism in the manner that Knowledge and Awareness of God, through Christ, is even bigger than the form and face from which seeing we understand and grow closer to The Divine Presence, Jesus.
For what it's worth explaining, there ya go.
Looking forward to a lovely and likely reply as to why I am wrong et al....
:namaste
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
Very well. Just making sure.
You will then not be dissapointed. However I am busy at the moment so let me ask another clarifying question first. From what source do derive your universal (we all get to heaven in the end) viewpoint?
Doesn't really matter what my answer is then does it?
Since I'm talking about Christianity, you should know that I'm not likely going to site any other sources than the Bible, bub.
Might as well let it roll, Brother.
Just keep the no proselytizing rule in mind.
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
If you are using the Bible primarily, and it was not able to persuade you of it's obvious exclusivity then I do not think the task is possible for a mere me. I also note your emotional attachment to the issue and so I have no intention to comment further. I will say that universalism is a very very fringe view and the Bible is exhaustively exclusive. In fact one of the major complaints against it, is its exclusivity. I would have never guessed you got that view point from the Bible. I assumed you had pulled it from some gnostic or heretical nonsense. Since I would be using the same Bible that you failed to grasp the profound exclusivity that it contains previously, my efforts would be redundant and probably just as non-effective. Facts can only persuade evidence based views and have no power to affect ones based in desire. One last question though. What is the purpose of Hell and judgment in the Bible?Doesn't really matter what my answer is then does it?
Since I'm talking about Christianity, you should know that I'm not likely going to site any other sources than the Bible, bub.
Might as well let it roll, Brother.
Just keep the no proselytizing rule in mind.
My name is not bub.
Better yet, Brother-man, why don't I just let you go along your merry way.
You have narrow view of hell, in my opinion.
Your tone is pretty insulting to me, and I don't care to carry on this conversation.
Thanks for sharing your understanding with me.
I hope you got what you wanted out of it.
Cheers
SageTree
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
I was not the one who used another name for the person I was adressing that is universally understood to be a term of derision and I never gave a view of Hell, wide or narrow. However I concur with your decision to terminate this non discussion.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Deal. Have a good weekend.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
I disagree with all your points.
"Since Jesus said all that are born again by grace through faith belong to him and the church...." I Doubt Jesus ever used those words, as no church existed during his life on earth.
I do not share your limited view of Christianity.
Like it was for Jesus himself, the centre of worship for a Christian is God.
Jesus as a Son of God, taught us how to serve God through our lives.
It is this service guided by the Holy Spirit, not a particular set of beliefs that is important.
I do not hold with any "Calvinistic" beliefs. These change Christianity from an active to a passive belief system.
We are not saved in this life, born again or otherwise.
I do not confuse a certain potential with a certainty.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
It is recorded that the Bible used those very words in testimony that is said by the greatest experts in evidence and testimony in human history (Simon Greenleaf, and Lord Lyndhurst) to meet every standard of modern law and the historical method. You can believe whatever you wish but you are doing so against the evidence. As far as my statement above goes. I did paraphrase a doctrine and credit it to Christ in specific words in a specific order, technically that was not correct. Jesus did say we must be born again.
John 3:3 ESV / Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 ESV
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/born_again_believers
And Paul described how that transpires:
New International Version(©1984)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
http://bible.cc/ephesians/2-8.htm
Unless you are of the "I can get to heaven on my own and need no grace so therefore Paul is a heretic" crowd then your statement is refuted countless times in the Bible. As I said you may believe what you wish but being born again by grace through faith is the Biblical position and any belief outside of that is not.
As for the word Church: Of course it is not in the original Bible, the word is English and the Bible NT was in Greek. The word used was: ἐκκλησία and it means:
d) in a Christian sense
1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2) a company of Christians, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
3) Those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4) The whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5) The assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
I really have a hard time believing you consider your positions Biblically valid as you are dissagreeing with doctrinal consensus. Both the Catholics and protestants (which make up 90% of Christianity) subscribe to what I have claimed (they do dissagree on different issues). Unless you are taking issue with who said what specific words. That is technically, semantically correct but irrelevant. Christ chose Paul as well as the other disciples and what I have listed is what they claimed. If you are redactionist then there will be no resolution because I do not acknowledge any Biblical revisionism.
Christ did. He said there is no name under heaven by which men might be saved. Christianity right or wrong is absolutely exclusive. If you believe in some kind of merit doctrine then that is more consistent with Islam or Judaism, not Christianity.
I agree with this but have no idea why it is relevant. It has no bearing on the issue. If you have Christ you have the father. If you are not born again then you have neither according to the Bible and no amount of works will make up for that.
Not in Christianity. If the Bible says anything at all it says that works do not get us to heaven. In fact it even says the man with no works will be saved specifically. Until you are born again you have no association or fellowship with the Holy Spirit or God.
I do not get my beliefs from Calvin or any other theologian. I get them from the Bible and the Bible over and over claims that we can't earn our way to heaven and we have all fallen short.
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" - Romans 3:23
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" - Romans 3:10
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:8
"Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" -Acts 16:29-30
There is the big question that we all want to know...what must I do to be saved?
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." -Acts 16:31
There are so many verses concerning this throughout the bible; it says its believed alone 90 times in the book of John.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." -John 3:18
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." -John 3:36
I do not know where you are getting your theology but it isn't Biblical. The Bible says many times "saved" in the past tense, and you simply say nope. If we can earn our way into heaven (an arrogant boast) then there was no need for Christ to die. It also is a schizophrenic dynamic. Can you tell me (and no one ever has been able to) exactly how it is we earn our ticket there? There are verses condemning specifically that very concept concerning newly converted Jews who were still thinking the law was the way.
Lets look at this simple statement in comparison with the Bible.
Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A8-9&version=NIV
1. It says by grace through faith and not by works.
2. It says saved in the past tense. (that same theme of being saved permanently is said in a hundred verses). Jesus says that he will lose not one and that both he and the Holy Spirit would never leave nor forsake us. You are making him into a liar.
3. It says it is a gift not a reward.
This one verse destroys your entire position. Please pick a single aspect of your claims and we will get to the bottom of it. I have never seen a higher concentration of unbiblical doctrine in as few words. Whatever it is, your position is not orthodox Christian doctrine.
Muffled
Jesus in me
What else can be more direct than this ?
I didn't find a "this."
This is a direct quote: He said "I agree."
When you say He agrees you are not quoting Him. The next question of course if Jesus has not spoken directly to you is "What is the source you are using to attribute agreement on His part?"
It doesn't really matter if you say you are a Christian, no one can prove that they are a Christian to someone else. That is a topic that is between you and God. We can, however, support any claims. Matt 7:16 talks about Christians being known by their fruits. If you want people to know you as a Christian then act like one, the words you say are not meaningless, but they have little or no weight if you contradict them in your behavior.
Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--" you're right about the church part though.