If it could be proved no god exists

[QuestioningMind]

@QuestioningMind
@ecco
@Etritonakin
@A Vestigial Mote

I find it strange that people should be so emotional in showing their disbelief in God.
If these disbelieving people could really prove that God does not exist then they shouldn't
be emotional but lay down their assertions with confidence without showing a hint of any feeling
whatsoever

I believe that we exist because God Almighty allowed us to exist
And the world exists to be habitable for all living things, including man
That makes the earth unique, rare and one of a kind in the universe
This universe was created in God's understanding

I believe we should be grateful
That is why I know that is our duty to find the true God and give him thanks
Further being a true worshiper has its advantage
Every time I call to the Father, the Father listens and gives me strenght

But people who do not know God, are alone
helpless and angry
Doomed to suffer on Judgement Day when all people are to be judged
now that is pathetic

I find it strange that you refuse to answer a simple question. And if you can't bother to reply to me personally, then I'm not going to continue to waste my time replying to your silly posts. So sad and pathetic that your faith is so terribly weak that you don't dare to respond to specific posts and simply ignore those questions that you have no answer for.

 

[MJFlores]

I find it strange that you refuse to answer a simple question. And if you can't bother to reply to me personally, then I'm not going to continue to waste my time replying to your silly posts. So sad and pathetic that your faith is so terribly weak that you don't dare to respond to specific posts and simply ignore those questions that you have no answer for.

I believe you are right that I could not prove that in the very beginning there was nothing.
Because....

Isn't that something?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you saying that human traffickers are following God? You can say "I believe in a God" as much as you can say "I believe I am a car" when you are in a garage.

No, you definatly aren't a true scottish person.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah and everything that surrounds it.

Yeah, that's not piling on claims at all....

It's actually even worse, as you're just holding up an entire religion.

Like saying that "christianity is evidence of god".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

1
It does not MATTER what he is ruled. He is still guilty. He is a guilty man who got away with murder.

It kind of matters a lot. Because over here in the real world, we don't have the answers before actually asking and investigating the questions.

We can't know who is guilty or not in advance.

That is a red herring.

No, it's not. What you said works just as well for all those entities I summed up.
It's a useless tautology. "if x exists then it exists, no matter if we can prove it or not". Well yeah... if x then x. Sure. If god then god. If leprechauns then leprechauns. If spiderman then spiderman.
Sounds pretty useless as a statement.

That does not MATTER if God can be proven to exist. If God exists, God exists.

Uhu. And if leprechauns exist, then leprechauns exist.

He is simply a God that atheists do not see

Just like the leprechaun is just a leprechaun that the unbelievers of leprechauns don't see.

, but He is not invisible because He manifests Himself in every age in the form of a Messenger who is both divine and human.

That is just what you believe.
I can also say that leprechauns manifest themselves every time a rainbow appears, which is what they use to pinpoint where they hid their pots of gold.

It's all just empty claims and beliefs.

We CAN prove that God exists to ourselves but we CANNOT prove it to anyone else.

Then you can't prove it.
Case in point: if we accept such claims, then we have to conclude that multiple individuals are "proving" gods to themselves while these gods are mutually exclusive. Most of these people must necessarily be incorrect, as they can't all be correct (they can all be wrong, though....). So how do we tell if you are one of them?

You could prove it to yourself right now IF you looked at the evidence and believed it was proof.

LOL, talk about self-deception.

You could also prove leprechauns to yourself right now IF you looked at the rainbow and believed it was proof of leprechauns

 

[shunyadragon]

I think it is.
I recall as a first year school student looking at a book which dealt with Genesis vs science.
The Genesis picture showed a huge arm reaching down from the clouds and planting a little
plant into the soil. This was the bible's account of how life formed on earth.
Only it wasn't.
In the 1970's I began looking at these verses. Spoke to a senior Rabbi in Melbourne. He was
amazed that his Torah said "God COMMANDED the seas to bring forth life."
Now both religious people and science people will cut you off if you mention this. I call these
verses the "orphan verses" of the bible. I felt I was onto the right thing.
Other things still weren't right
Back then we didn't know the early earth was oceanic with no continents.
We thought life came from the sea FIRST and then the land - opposite to Genesis.

So when you read Genesis 1 give credit where its due.

No, I give Genesis 1 no credit just based on on phrase, because the rest of Genesis, of course does not remotely fit the scientific origins of life nor evolution. Genesis is a compiled and edited mythical literature based on earlier evolved Sumerian, Babylonian, Canaanite and Ugarit cuneiform literature blend with Hebrew oral traditions.

Thought that is what I said.

Not quite, reread your response.

To me cosmology isn't just the heavens, it goes down to the very atoms
because all this formed from cosmology.

Physics and Quantum Mechanics deal with the world of particles that make up atoms.

"Cosmology is the entire physical existence, our universe and all possible universes."

 

[PruePhillip]

No, I give Genesis 1 no credit just based on on phrase, because the rest of Genesis, of course does not remotely fit the scientific origins of life nor evolution. Genesis is a compiled and edited mythical literature based on earlier evolved Sumerian, Babylonian, Canaanite and Ugarit cuneiform literature blend with Hebrew oral traditions.

"Cosmology is the entire physical existence, our universe and all possible universes."

Interesting to think that what we think of in terms of "elementary particles" , ie not made of anything
else (such as electrons) are just ripples in a field which permeates the whole universe. So studying
the universe you are, kind of, studying the tiniest parts of it.

Saying Genesis is a myth like other cultures, without supporting arguments is simply being
dismissive instead of logical.

The following is typical of all the cultures you mentioned.
Wikipedia
Ancient Canaanite religion - Wikipedia

Canaanite creation mythology.
In the Baal Cycle, Ba'al Hadad is challenged by and defeats Yam, using two magical weapons (called
"Driver" and "Chaser") made for him by Kothar-wa-Khasis. Afterward, with the help of Athirat and Anat,
Ba'al persuades El to allow him a palace. El approves, and the palace is built by Kothar-wa-Khasis. After
the palace is constructed, Ba'al gives forth a thunderous roar out of the palace window and challenges
Mot. Mot enters through the window and swallows Ba'al, sending him to the Underworld. With no one to
give rain, there is a terrible drought in Ba'al's absence. The other deities, especially El and Anat, are
distraught that Ba'al has been taken to the Underworld. Anat goes to the Underworld, attacks Mot with a
knife, grinds him up into pieces, and scatters him far and wide. With Mot defeated, Ba'al is able to return
and refresh the Earth with rain.

The first Genesis account is quite reserved. Were it not for the symbolic seven days it would read
completely like a scientific account. Not so sure about the second account. But oddly, there's two
accounts for various things which happened in the bible and I wonder what culture controlled the
bible at various times.
Did I mention this 'seven' business in the bible? It ruins a lot of historical material, ie removing names
from genealogy lists or removing churches to get that magic seven.

 

[shunyadragon]

Interesting to think that what we think of in terms of "elementary particles" , ie not made of anything
else (such as electrons) are just ripples in a field which permeates the whole universe. So studying
the universe you are, kind of, studying the tiniest parts of it.

Saying Genesis is a myth like other cultures, without supporting arguments is simply being
dismissive instead of logical.

There is abundant evidence of the evolution and relationships of Genesis with more ancient cultures, and the fact that Hebrew is an evolved Canaanite language, and Genesis and the Pentateuch are very late without earlier roots in Hebrew culture, The earliest evidence of Genesis and the Pentateuch are ~1000-600 BCE. Yes earlier myths are different, but the Hebrew texts remain rooted in more ancient writings with similar references to names of gods

More to follow . . .

Again one phrase citation does not make Genesis compatible with science, since ~40+ of the Christians in the USA consider the Creation in Genesis literal, and that is the unanimous belief since most Church Fathers supported a literal Genesis.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

@QuestioningMind
@ecco
@Etritonakin
@A Vestigial Mote

I find it strange that people should be so emotional in showing their disbelief in God.
If these disbelieving people could really prove that God does not exist then they shouldn't
be emotional but lay down their assertions with confidence without showing a hint of any feeling
whatsoever

You started out okay (well, all except the ridiculous animated gif), talking about non-belief - but then you jumped immediately into talking about proving God doesn't exist. I'm not about to prove that God doesn't exist. There is just as much way to do that as there is to prove that He does exist. As in... NONE.

Also - how about YOU prove that Thor doesn't exist for me? Go ahead. I'll wait.

And right there... that statement should make you realize how foolish you are being. You can't prove that Thor doesn't exist. You can't. And for the same reason that I can't prove that God doesn't exist. And yet YOU don't believe in Thor, do you? DO YOU? No. And why not? Because THERE ISN'T GOOD EVIDENCE FOR THE PROPOSITION OF "THOR." Duh. Freaking duh.

I believe that we exist because God Almighty allowed us to exist

Completely baseless assertion. You're allowed to believe this all you want, just don't expect anyone else to buy in with the paltry, ridiculous excuse for evidence that you bring to the table.

I believe we should be grateful

Go ahead and believe we should be grateful to God... just don't tell me I have to be, or even expect me to be. In fact, don't share that particular opinion with me at all. It's asinine, and useless. You have no way to prove God had a hand in anything, and I do not, at all, have to accept it. Nothing compels me to do so. Compare this with my statement of belief here: "I believe that if you step off the top of a multi-story building, you will be injured by the fall." - do you feel there is anything compelling you to believe my statement? Hell yes there is. And this is the difference I am talking about. Nothing compels me to follow your beliefs or even care about them at all. But you try and "disbelieve" my claim about you stepping off a building and you're going to get hurt. There is great and profound reason to believe my claim, and plenty of evidence to back it up. You've got nothing like this, and I don't even have to consider believing you. I don't. Not one iota.

That is why I know that is our duty to find the true God and give him thanks

Again - you can go ahead and "know" this all you want... just don't talk to me about it. I don't want to hear it... unless you have some pretty weighty evidence to convince me I just don't care at all.

Further being a true worshiper has its advantage

Not that I have seen. Seriously... not at all. I could give you a list of the things I witness that lead me to believe that belief is actually a detriment to almost everyone I have interacted with who is a believer, but it would probably break the rules of the site and you would likely feel very insulted.

Every time I call to the Father, the Father listens and gives me strenght

Good for you. But again - keep it to yourself. I don't need to know about it, and I certainly don't need to do the same things you do.

But people who do not know God, are alone
helpless and angry

No.

Doomed to suffer on Judgement Day when all people are to be judged

Any reason I should be compelled to believe this one? Anything even close to my statement about walking off of a building? No? That's what I thought.

now that is pathetic

You can think this all you want. You think I put ANY stock in about your opinions? Don't make me laugh.

 

[MJFlores]

You started out okay (well, all except the ridiculous animated gif), talking about non-belief - but then you jumped immediately into talking about proving God doesn't exist. I'm not about to prove that God doesn't exist. There is just as much way to do that as there is to prove that He does exist. As in... NONE.

Also - how about YOU prove that Thor doesn't exist for me? Go ahead. I'll wait.

And right there... that statement should make you realize how foolish you are being. You can't prove that Thor doesn't exist. You can't. And for the same reason that I can't prove that God doesn't exist. And yet YOU don't believe in Thor, do you? DO YOU? No. And why not? Because THERE ISN'T GOOD EVIDENCE FOR THE PROPOSITION OF "THOR." Duh. Freaking duh.

Completely baseless assertion. You're allowed to believe this all you want, just don't expect anyone else to buy in with the paltry, ridiculous excuse for evidence that you bring to the table.

Go ahead and believe we should be grateful to God... just don't tell me I have to be, or even expect me to be. In fact, don't share that particular opinion with me at all. It's asinine, and useless. You have no way to prove God had a hand in anything, and I do not, at all, have to accept it. Nothing compels me to do so. Compare this with my statement of belief here: "I believe that if you step off the top of a multi-story building, you will be injured by the fall." - do you feel there is anything compelling you to believe my statement? Hell yes there is. And this is the difference I am talking about. Nothing compels me to follow your beliefs or even care about them at all. But you try and "disbelieve" my claim about you stepping off a building and you're going to get hurt. There is great and profound reason to believe my claim, and plenty of evidence to back it up. You've got nothing like this, and I don't even have to consider believing you. I don't. Not one iota.

Again - you can go ahead and "know" this all you want... just don't talk to me about it. I don't want to hear it... unless you have some pretty weighty evidence to convince me I just don't care at all.

Not that I have seen. Seriously... not at all. I could give you a list of the things I witness that lead me to believe that belief is actually a detriment to almost everyone I have interacted with who is a believer, but it would probably break the rules of the site and you would likely feel very insulted.

Good for you. But again - keep it to yourself. I don't need to know about it, and I certainly don't need to do the same things you do.

No.

Any reason I should be compelled to believe this one? Anything even close to my statement about walking off of a building? No? That's what I thought.

You can think this all you want. You think I put ANY stock in about your opinions? Don't make me laugh.

These are all your opinions, cajoles, innuendos and sarcasms
To make the long description short, its more of....

Totally empty. Like nonsensical comments of an angry man
If Marvel Comics is one's religion then that fanatic would be worshiping
fictional characters [false god/s]

And would this individual deserve to go to heaven on Judgement Day?
Absolutely not. This Thor worshiper is as worse as an atheist or what have you.
I don't easily respond to personal opinions but I would appreciate an assertion from a noted individual
than from a person behind a pseudo name.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

These are all your opinions, cajoles, innuendos and sarcasms
To make the long description short, its more of....

Totally empty. Like nonsensical comments of an angry man
If Marvel Comics is one's religion then that fanatic would be worshiping
fictional characters [false god/s]

Wow... so I take it that you don't even know that the origin of "Thor" from the Marvel comics is from the ENTIRELY REAL Germanic beliefs in Thor as a god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, and the protection of mankind?

Okay... considering who I must obviously be dealing with here (i.e. someone who doesn't do a lick of actual investigation into anything they are willing to just discuss willy-nilly) I'll reframe my request to you:

Please prove to me that Zeus does not exist. If you can do that, then I promise I will do my very best to try and prove that your god does not exist (please remember that this was NEVER what I was trying to do in the first place). Again... just prove to me that Zeus does not exist. Easy, right? And if you can't do that, then you understand exactly why I can't do that, and wouldn't try. But you also must then understand (or at the very least - contemplate) the fact that you do not believe in Zeus because of the lack of evidence for Zeus. I am merely expressing the exact same lack of evidence for YOUR God.

After all, Zeus has texts written for his sake, and he had a boat-load of believers during the time that he was most popularly believed, and he was attributed with a great many doings and activities on Earth. So, he has just about the same caliber of evidence as you have for your God to support him. So... why is it that you don't believe in Zeus? With the same types of evidence, you simply dismiss Zeus outright? WHY is that? Do you even have an answer that will satisfy yourself?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I believe you are right that I could not prove that in the very beginning there was nothing.
Because....

Isn't that something?

ROFL... Dude, you're making me dizzy with all of that circular logic of yours. No wonder you avoid responding directly to people. You don't even have a clue what a logical fallacy is. So very sad and pathetic.

 

[dfnj]

Please prove to me that Zeus does not exist. If you can do that, then I promise I will do my very best to try and prove that your god does not exist (please remember that this was NEVER what I was trying to do in the first place). Again... just prove to me that Zeus does not exist. Easy, right? And if you can't do that, then you understand exactly why I can't do that, and wouldn't try. But you also must then understand (or at the very least - contemplate) the fact that you do not believe in Zeus because of the lack of evidence for Zeus. I am merely expressing the exact same lack of evidence for YOUR God.

Anyone with half a brain knows you can't prove a negative. There is a chance that monkeys will fly out of my butt at some point in the future. Although it is very unlikely I cannot prove to you something will never happen.

You can never prove something like God does not exist because at some future point in time evidence might be found or experience everyone agrees with as proof God does exist.

The thing is, over the last 500 years science has been wildly successfully in showing silly superstitions to be false with regards to religion. Take animal sacrifice for example as a way to gain God's favor. Or the most commonly used example is when during a full solar eclipse the priest magically brings back the sun through prayer. So with the success of science it does not take a huge leap of imagination to just assume everything about religion is silly superstitions. And although you cannot prove a negative, the chances of God actually existing are very unlikely given the way we understand the way nature works.

The atheist position is a perfectly reasonable position. The idea that someone does not believe in God because they've never met Him is perfectly reasonable. The idea that the only things that exist are things with real evidence of their existence is a perfectly reasonable position.

My problem with this thread is three things. Since you can't prove a negative it is a dumb question to ask.

And second, the idea of God is much more different and more sophisticated than the way atheists define the word God. Take apophatic theology as an example. Just because you use a toilet everyday doesn't make you a master plumber. I think the atheists are pretending to know more about God than they actually know or understand. People with a deep and profound appreciation for spirituality seem to be having real experiences as far as I can tell. It may be purely subjective but it is a lot more interesting and fun that nihilism. It is a lot more interesting and fun than philosophical materialism (aka realism) which seems to have been shown to be a belief system not supported by scientific evidence. People who lack imagination claim all religion is delusional but I think there's more to it.

And third, people of faith should simply not care what atheists think. Posing this question makes theists look like unintelligent idiots. And further, by arguing with atheists about this is really an indication of a theist's lack of belief in their own dogma. People's faith in God should be much stronger than caring about what atheists believe. If a person's faith is so weak that it matters what other people think then maybe the problem is not with the atheists!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

And second, the idea of God is much more different and more sophisticated than the way atheists define the word God.

As an atheist, I am not in the business of "defining" god. I'm more in the business of telling people who come to me with unverifiable claims for things they slap the word "god" on to go take a hike.

Take apophatic theology as an example.

Does the process of contemplating what something "isn't" have any real-world application when you can't even be sure that the "something" even exists? I could easily make up a thing... let's call it "smodagafats." Now, I can tell you that "smodagafats" is not marshmallow, it is not cookie dough, and it is not pure evil. What now? What have we learned?

Just because you use a toilet everyday doesn't make you a master plumber.

Toilets and plumbers exist, verifiably. If you really want to make an analogy like this for belief in deity, then you need to go with something like: "Just because you believe you have ridden a unicorn everyday does not make you a master Unicorniarinator." There - I fixed your analogy.

I think the atheists are pretending to know more about God than they actually know or understand.

This is just plain goofy. I am "pretending to know more about God?" All I ever know is what people claim or tell me... and that's one of my main points as an atheist as to why I remain atheist despite all the claims - it is ALL hearsay. That's all there is. Nothing concrete, nothing that isn't some semantic game to make "god" exist just because I can't deny that "the sun" or "the universe" exist.

People with a deep and profound appreciation for spirituality seem to be having real experiences as far as I can tell.

Personal experiences, yes. Fine. But what has that got to do with me or any other atheist? And that's the point. Until it DOES have something to do with us, then it DOESN'T have anything to do with us.

It may be purely subjective but it is a lot more interesting and fun that nihilism.

Because all atheists are nihilists?

It is a lot more interesting and fun than philosophical materialism (aka realism) which seems to have been shown to be a belief system not supported by scientific evidence.

Because all atheists are philosophical materialists?

People who lack imagination claim all religion is delusional but I think there's more to it.

Because all atheists lack imagination?

Give me a break.

And third, people of faith should simply not care what atheists think.

This I COMPLETELY agree with! But then what they must also understand is that atheists do not, at all, have to care about what theists think. And "sharing" your viewpoint should only be done if the other party even cares in the first place. Otherwise - keep your wild-*** theorizing to yourself.

People's faith in God should be much stronger than caring about what atheists believe.

Also agreed! It shouldn't even matter what atheists think if the theist "knows" they are correct. Just as nothing theists believe matters to me. I mean - their using their "knowledge" to try to affect the world around them matters to me - but their beliefs themselves are useless and unworthy of consideration in my estimation - just garbage blowing in the wind.

If a person's faith is so weak that it matters what other people think then maybe the problem is not with them.

I also agree with this.

 

[ecco]

So brutal. Like always.

I see that you didn't deny posting the video without even looking at it.

Honesty is brutal only to the person on the wrong side of it.

 

[ecco]

Your argument was that one cannot prove a negative. Have you already forgotten that you posted that assertion?

That was not an argument, it was a statement of fact. Some negatives can be proven

• Trailblazer stated that one cannot prove a negative.
• Trailblazer stated that that was a factual statement.
• Trailblazer stated some negatives can be proven.

 

[ecco]

...universal negatives such as "god does not exist" cannot be proven.

It cannot be proven because the word "god" is too ambiguous.

However, let's consider the OT god.

If what is written about him accurately describes him and his actions, then we can produce overwhelming evidence that he is nothing more than the creation of man's imaginings.

As just one example, it is written (in his sacred scripture) that he caused the entire world to be flooded within the past 6000 years. There is overwhelming evidence that the entire world was not flooded within the past 6000 years. Therefore it is certain that a god, as described in the OT did not / does not exist.

 

[ecco]

Why did you link to the article? Why did you quote from the article?

Because you asked me what I was referring to. You said:

Give me an example of a negative, and we'll see if it can be proven.
Are you referring to the fact that, since gods cannot be proven, they are negatives?

Did you read and understand the article?

 

[ecco]

Isn't that saying about the same thing, gods don't exist, man just imagines that they exist?

No. Read it carefully.

 

[ecco]

ecco previously:
Using your definitions: The heavens everything we see, feel, hear etc. created the world.
Really?!? An Elton John song created the world? The alligator I see in my back yard created the world? The sting from the mosquito bite created the world?

Yes, the heavens created your world - because the "heavens" is everything, ie gravity, light,
physical laws, space, energy etc - planets were created by the heavens by the formation
of the "metals" which coalesced under gravity to form stars which......

You really need to understand what you write, then, maybe, you can begin to understand my comments.




In any case, "The Heavens" did not create anything in the sense you are trying to argue.