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If Jesus Died...

Colt

Well-Known Member
You are absolutely wrong about that.
You are the one that keeps insisting that Elijah is in the sky and not heaven.

You never did answer my question to you:

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

When did Jesus ascend into heaven prior to this discussion with Nicodemus?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Do you believe in a triune godhead? Many do. By the way you might need to review definitions again.
You mean Watchtower-initions?

Yes, I believe in the Paradise Trinity that Jesus referenced. But I do not believe Christ Michael is the second person of the Trinity.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are the one that keeps insisting that Elijah is in the sky and not heaven.

You never did answer my question to you:

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

When did Jesus ascend into heaven prior to this discussion with Nicodemus?
You believe what you want to and I believe differently on many things from you. Take care. Just to clarify I never said I believe that Elijah is in the sky so do yourself a favor and stop lying. Thank you.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
You believe what you want to and I believe differently on many things from you. Take care. Just to clarify I never said I believe that Elijah is in the sky so do yourself a favor and stop lying. Thank you.
Your refusal to answer the question is telling. Run along
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Your refusal to answer the question is telling. Run along
I am not getting into a discussion with you now in part because you keep insisting I said something I did not. So this tells me something about you.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I am not getting into a discussion with you now in part because you keep insisting I said something I did not. So this tells me something about you.
Thats a cop out from the guy who can ask questions, dish it out but avoids answering a simple question lest it prove his pet theory wrong!
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
When you replied me the first time , you gave me one advice , let the Scripture do the work..
David is described as King of the people of Israel.

You can see the difference in:
Oh, okay. I see.
...but you used sixteen (16) words which are not scripture. ;) Yes or No, is only one (1) word.

Do you want me to guess that you are saying that David represents Christ?
Okay. If that's what you are saying...
(Jeremiah 23:5, 6) 5 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land. 6In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

(Isaiah 11:1) A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesʹse, And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit.
(Revelation 5:5) But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
(Revelation 22:16) “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’”


Hence, the same rule used to arrive at that conclusion, applies to Elijah.
Elijah is used representatively, both in the case of Malachi 4:5 and Matthew 17:3.
Elijah is dead in the earth, a long time ago.
I'll make it clear how we know, in a moment.

John 10:16
"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd"
(Jeremiah 30:9) They will serve Jehovah their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.”
(Ezekiel 34:23) I will raise up one shepherd over them, my servant David, and he will feed them. He himself will feed them and become their shepherd.
(Ezekiel 37:24) “‘“My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will walk in my judicial decisions and carefully observe my statutes.
(Hosea 3:5) Afterward the people of Israel will come back and look for Jehovah their God and for David their king, and they will come trembling to Jehovah and to his goodness in the final part of the days.

Yes. Jesus Christ - the Messiah, is figuratively David.

Now, to weild the sword, as instructed at 2 Corinthians 10:3-6
The way of entry to heaven

tabernaclecut.jpg


This tent is an illustration for the present time. . . (Hebrews 9:9)
A first tent compartment was constructed, in which were the lampstand and the table and the display of the loaves of presentation; and it is called the Holy Place. But behind the second curtain was the tent compartment called the Most Holy. ... But now is not the time to speak of these things in detail. (Hebrews 9:2-5)

After these things were constructed this way, the priests enter the first tent compartment regularly to perform the sacred services; but the high priest enters alone into the second compartment once a year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins that the people committed in ignorance. Thus the holy spirit makes it clear that the way into the holy place had not yet been revealed while the first tent was standing. (Hebrews 9:6-8)

That is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance. For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be established,  because a covenant is valid at death, since it is not in force as long as the human covenanter is living. (Hebrews 9:15-17)

The heavenly things require far better sacrifices. For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf. (Hebrews 9:23, 24)

The holy spirit makes it clear that the way into the holy place had not yet been revealed while the first tent was standing.

Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, (Hebrews 10:19, 20)

Again Jesus called out with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And look! the curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split. (Matthew 27:50, 51)

a9f6cae3-65c3-4706-9115-fc7ed38f6cd9.png


We have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh

 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, both sure and firm, and it enters in within the curtain, where a forerunner has entered in our behalf, Jesus, who has become a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek forever. (Hebrews 6:19, 20)

He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens. (Colossians 1:18-20)

For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. (1 Corinthians 15:22, 23)

Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence


(1 Corinthians 15:20) . . .Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. . .

(Revelation 14:1-5) 1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
Luke 22:28-30; Romans 8:15-25

It's pretty clear that neither Enoch, nor Elijah, went to heaven.
They are clearly not the first raised to heavenly life.
Those who believe such, have Jesus to answer to, for refusing to accept the truth of the Word.
I wouldn't want to be in that position. Ouch.
 
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Colt

Well-Known Member
He already got an answer to that question anyway.
I was asking him, your answer was something like a crooked politician would try to sell! You put some JW “spin” on it which converted a past tense sentence into a future event.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
(Revelation 5:5) But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
(Revelation 22:16) “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’”
The lion of the tribe of Judah is described in Hosea 5. Hosea 6 is referenced from the gospel of Matthew:

But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:12-13

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah [saw] his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
Hosea 5:13-14

Sickness is a common element in the verses from Matthew 9 and Hosea 5. The reference to a resurrection of sorts in Hosea 6:2 relates to the symbol of the physician (the Rod of Asclepius) via the crucifixion:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:14
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You don't get a gift if you reject it. My Dad gave me a piece of land but I still had to accept it. Grace isn't forced on anyone.
Just want to say that many people believe that death is the only outcome forever (per evolution). And now it is in the books illustratively speaking, of course) that it is what we face. The pain is while we're alive, not while we're dead. Just mentioning. :)
Ecclesiastes 9:5 is just one example of what happens when we die--there are other scriptures referring to death but perhaps we can start with this one:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." King James Version.
The dead know nothing -- they are not in pain or happiness. They're dead. Until the resurrection, of course.
 
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Dimi95

Прaвославие!
It's pretty clear that neither Enoch, nor Elijah, went to heaven.
They are clearly not the first raised to heavenly life.
Those who believe such, have Jesus to answer to, for refusing to accept the truth of the Word.
I wouldn't want to be in that position. Ouch.

Yes , i agree , Jesus is the first raised to the new heavens

Isaiah 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth.The former things will not be remembered".

2 Peter 3:13
"But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

Luke 9:30-32
"Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure,which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem."

Also , my point was that they were dead in this world , and i said they were taken , as Scripture says.

Again , New and Everlasting Covenant!
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
But they wrote with authority. The NT authors show evidence that they understood their writings to contain authoritative apostolic tradition. The apostles were commissioned by Christ to speak for him and were empowered by the Holy Spirit. So, the NT writings have the authority of Christ himself. To the earliest Christians, the Gospels were “the word of God” and it had been regarded as that by the church since then.
You believe anyone who says that?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Hi. I am going to quote the interchange between the devil and Jesus at Matthew 4:8-10 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
Let me know what you think, please. Jesus did not tell Satan, look, you don't own all the kingdoms of the world, so you can't give them to me anyway.
Ah, but he implies God owns everything when talking about taxes, doesn’t he?
 
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