If Jesus Died...

[blü 2]

One at a time.

Please quote the verse where God impales anyone, and also please quote any dictionary that defines torture as execution.
I'll wait.

You indeed don't bother to read your bible. I gave you the reference before but here it is again: 2 Samuel 21.

Verse 9 says "and he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them on the mountain before the Lord, and the seven of them perished together."

That's the usual polite version. However, the word translated "hanged" is

"yâqaʻ ; properly, to sever oneself, i.e. (by implication) to be dislocated; figuratively, to abandon; causatively, to impale (and thus allow to drop to pieces by rotting):—be alienated, depart, hang (up), be out of joint."​

Even if you read it as "hanged", it was a human sacrifice of seven innocent people which God required before [he] would lift the famine.

 

[blü 2]

Everyone bears the consequences of the first sin, the foremost of which is death, only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin.

"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

I invite you to read Genesis 2 & 3 with a completely open mind and answer these questions according to what the text says ─

Does the word 'sin' occur anywhere in the text?

Does the word 'fall' occur anywhere in the text?

Could Adam and Eve tell right from wrong BEFORE they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

If they couldn't, how could they sin, which requires intention?

What reason does God give for expelling Adam and Eve from the garden? (Hint: Genesis 3:22-23.)

and anyway

Is it not an excellent and necessary thing that humans can tell good from bad, right from wrong? Is not Eve, even though she's only a legend, a legendary heroine of mankind?

So we inherit nothing from our parents through genes, is that what you are trying to say?

No, I'm directing your attention to the fact that there's no Fall of Man in the Garden story, and that Ezekiel 18 discusses the point and says sin can't be inherited eg

20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

As I mentioned to our friend @nPeace, it's thought that the notion of the Fall can be traced back to Jews of Alexandria late in the second century BCE who were practicing the midrash tradition (where you take a verse or two of the bible and see what a flight of fancy can make of it). Paul didn't do anything with it, the gospels never mention it, but wretched Augustine of Hippo realized it was perfect for increasing sales and from there it caught on.

 

[cataway]

20 The soul that sins shall die.

 

[Colt]

IMOP, this makes sense:

FORGIVENESS OF SIN​

89:10.1 Ancient man only attained consciousness of favor with God through sacrifice. Modern man must develop new techniques of achieving the self-consciousness of salvation. The consciousness of sin persists in the mortal mind, but the thought patterns of salvation therefrom have become outworn and antiquated. The reality of the spiritual need persists, but intellectual progress has destroyed the olden ways of securing peace and consolation for mind and soul.

89:10.2 Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals.

89:10.3 The sense or feeling of guilt is the consciousness of the violation of the mores; it is not necessarily sin. There is no real sin in the absence of conscious disloyalty to Deity.

89:10.4 The possibility of the recognition of the sense of guilt is a badge of transcendent distinction for mankind. It does not mark man as mean but rather sets him apart as a creature of potential greatness and ever-ascending glory. Such a sense of unworthiness is the initial stimulus that should lead quickly and surely to those faith conquests which translate the mortal mind to the superb levels of moral nobility, cosmic insight, and spiritual living; thus are all the meanings of human existence changed from the temporal to the eternal, and all values are elevated from the human to the divine.

89:10.5 The confession of sin is a manful repudiation of disloyalty, but it in no wise mitigates the time-space consequences of such disloyalty. But confession—sincere recognition of the nature of sin—is essential to religious growth and spiritual progress.

89:10.6 The forgiveness of sin by Deity is the renewal of loyalty relations following a period of the human consciousness of the lapse of such relations as the consequence of conscious rebellion. The forgiveness does not have to be sought, only received as the consciousness of re-establishment of loyalty relations between the creature and the Creator. And all the loyal sons of God are happy, service-loving, and ever-progressive in the Paradise ascent. UB 1955

 

[Muffled]

" people of that time period had no idea of how to determine death versus unconscious. "

That true, Jesus did not die on the Cross and delivered from the Cross in "near-dead" condition and or proverbial/poetic "dead", but very much alive, right?

Regards

I believe you are incorrect. The dead body of Jesus was retrieved for burial.

 

[Muffled]

Possible. If he walked after the cross, not dead.... Clear enough?

I believe He did not walk because the body was dead from suffocation and assured of such by a sword thrust to the heart by a soldier.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, Jesus did not die.

Regards

I believe that is not the same thing.

 

[cataway]

I believe you are incorrect. The dead body of Jesus was retrieved for burial.

Have you ever wondered how they got him down?

 

[Bthoth]

I believe He did not walk because the body was dead from suffocation and assured of such by a sword thrust to the heart by a soldier.

a... no one knows for certain, if he was dead
b...... not even a spear to the chest proves he was dead. Heck most had no idea what a heart was to a living thing back in the 1st century AD.

Those are the key points. Just because the story sounds like they made sure. In reality, the people of the time period had no idea how to even take a pulse.

 

[nPeace]

You indeed don't bother to read your bible.

It's good that you do.

I gave you the reference before but here it is again: 2 Samuel 21.

Verse 9 says "and he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them on the mountain before the Lord, and the seven of them perished together."

So who hanged them? Jehovah, or the Gibeonites... and who were the Gibeonites?

That's the usual polite version. However, the word translated "hanged" is

"yâqaʻ ; properly, to sever oneself, i.e. (by implication) to be dislocated; figuratively, to abandon; causatively, to impale (and thus allow to drop to pieces by rotting):—be alienated, depart, hang (up), be out of joint."​

Gruesome.
It's good that you do research as well.

The methods of execution fits the norm, of the people in ancient times who were alienated from God.
Besides that, execution by God's hands is described as a terrible experience.
(Hebrews 10:31) . . .It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. . .

(Zephaniah 1:14-18) 14 “The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. There a mighty man is letting out a cry. 15 That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom, 16 a day of horn and of alarm signal, against the fortified cities and against the high corner towers. 17 And I will cause distress to mankind, and they will certainly walk like blind men; because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned. And their blood will actually be poured out like dust, and their bowels like the dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury; but by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be devoured, because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth.”

I'm good with God taking vengeance against the wicked for their defiance of him.
I would deserve to experience that wrath myself, for thinking I don't owe the creator anything.

Even if you read it as "hanged", it was a human sacrifice of seven innocent people which God required before [he] would lift the famine.

I wish I could comment you here, also, but I can't. Don mind though. We don't always get it right.
Saul's sons were wicked. The almighty was in the right.

Let's see the scriptures that say Saul's sons were innocent, and I will show you all... well, not all, but a few of the scriptures that show God is in the right.
Which brings me to another point in your post, which I will now address.

@blü 2 said
The firstborn who weren't paid for died. Jephthah's daughter died. The seven mentioned above died. The boys who were rude to the bald prophet died. The pregnant women ripped open in God's name, and their unborn children, died. Jesus died. The surrendered populations who were murdered en masse died, except for the virgins kept for the mass rape, Not even a sniff of righteousness there.

The scriptures show that Jephthah's daughter is alive. She did not die.

(Judges 11:37-40) 37 She then said to her father: “Let this be done for me: Let me be alone for two months, and let me go away into the mountains, and let me weep over my virginity with my female companions.” 38 At this he said: “Go!” So he sent her away for two months, and she went to the mountains with her companions to weep over her virginity. 39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, after which he carried out the vow he had made regarding her. She never had relations with a man. And it became a custom in Israel: 40 From year to year, the young women of Israel would go to give commendation to the daughter of Jephʹthah the Gilʹe·ad·ite four days in the year.

No scripture says that Jephthah's daughter died. None.

The boys who were killed by the bears, were not exempted from punishment. Which means they were not innocent children.
It wasn't become they called Elisha bald. What were they saying? "Go up, you baldhead!".
What did they mean by "Go up"?

To show, that Jehovah does not excuse young one for rebellion, we have this account...
(Ezekiel 9:5, 6) 5 And to the others he said in my hearing: “Go through the city after him and strike. Do not let your eye feel sorry, and do not feel any compassion. 6 Old man, young man, virgin, little child, and women you should kill off completely. But do not go near to any man on whom there is the mark...

Pregnant woman ripped open? Did you quote the verse?
In any case, Jehovah is righteous and always acts justly, based on facts which he has, and we don't.
Scripture says of him...
(Deuteronomy 10:17, 18) .17  . .Jehovah your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty, and awe-inspiring, who treats none with partiality and does not accept a bribe. 18 He executes justice for the fatherless child and the widow and loves the foreign resident, giving him food and clothing.

So, it doesn't matter the sex, age, or race.
(Jeremiah 17:10) I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, Examining the innermost thoughts, To give to each one according to his ways, According to the fruitage of his works.
(1 Chronicles 28:9)
...for Jehovah searches through all hearts, and he discerns every inclination of the thoughts.

Who are we to be judging what is righteous, when we haven't even figured that out.
Mankind is still trying to determine what is right and wrong, and depending on where you live, that can change with time.

We cannot yet think of how science might resolve this or that moral conflict

There’s no single moral brain center, there’s no such thing as a single type of moral person​

 

[blü 2]

So who hanged them? Jehovah, or the Gibeonites... and who were the Gibeonites?

The Gibeonites impaled them. The people killed were innocent of any wrongdoing, chosen because they were descendants of Saul.

God required their killing as a condition of lifting a famine God had imposed.

Human sacrifice, demanded by God.

(Zephaniah 1:14-18) 14 “The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. [...] because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned. And their blood will actually be poured out like dust, and their bowels like the dung.

Charming deity that, hey? Screw righteousness, justice, mercy, decency, GIMME BLOOD!!!

Well, if you want to worship that, not my problem ─ though I respectfully suggest it doesn't reflect well on your own sensibilities.

I'm good with God taking vengeance against the wicked for their defiance of him.

You'd have loved the Bronze Age, an insider to the horror story. All those free virgins as spoils of war! All those populations of surrendered cities put to death in a glorious day out for you! You must feel very sad you missed the Thirty Years War too, Christian slaughtering Christian in your God's name.

Me, as I said at the start, I see nothing righteous in any of that, just a barbaric old deity among barbaric old deities in a barbaric age.

Let's see the scriptures that say Saul's sons were innocent, and I will show you all.

On the contrary, you show me where it says each of them was guilty of anything except being a descendant of Saul. Which itself is a breach of Ezekiel 18 in general and Ezekiel 18:20 in particular.

But as you've said, that doesn't reflect your personal morality. Your version of righteousness is putting everyone to death first to avoid tedious details like personal responsibility.

..
The firstborn who weren't paid for died. Jephthah's daughter died. The seven mentioned above died. The boys who were rude to the bald prophet died. The pregnant women ripped open in God's name, and their unborn children, died. Jesus died. The surrendered populations who were murdered en masse died, except for the virgins kept for the mass rape, Not even a sniff of righteousness there.

The scriptures show that Jephthah's daughter is alive. She did not die.

(Judges 11:37-40) 37 She then said to her father: “Let this be done for me: Let me be alone for two months, and let me go away into the mountains, and let me weep over my virginity with my female companions.” 38 At this he said: “Go!” So he sent her away for two months, and she went to the mountains with her companions to weep over her virginity. 39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, after which he carried out the vow he had made regarding her. She never had relations with a man. And it became a custom in Israel: 40 From year to year, the young women of Israel would go to give commendation to the daughter of Jephʹthah the Gilʹe·ad·ite four days in the year.

Well, given your ringing endorsement above of human sacrifice and the slaughter of surrendered populations except for some mass rapes, you must feel very disappointed. But cheer up, it really was a human sacrifice.

Step 1: Judges 11:29 Then the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah [...] 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said,

If thou wilt give the Ammonites into my hand​

then whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me when I return victorious from the Ammonites​

shall be the Lord's​

and I will offer him up as a burnt offering.​

Let me underline that Jephthah made the vow while the spirit of the Lord was upon him
and that Jephthah expressly promised a human sacrifice.

Step 2.

39 [...] the Lord gave them [the Ammonites] into his hand.​

The Lord has accepted the deal that [he] set up with Jephthah while upon him in verse 20, and carried out [his] side of the bargain. Jephthah now owes God a human sacrifice.

Step 3.

34 [...] his daughter came out to meet him.​

His daughter is now IT.

Step 4.

39 [...] she returned to her father , who did with her according to his vow which he had made.​

Now what exactly was the vow Jephthah had made? You'll recall it was

whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me when I return victorious from the Ammonites​

shall be the Lord's​

and I will offer him up as a burnt offering.​

So Jephthah has sacrificed his daughter to God as a burnt offering. The text is unambigious.

What about those 'daughters of Israel'?

40 that the daughters of Israel went year by year to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days a year.​

That's right, nothing there suggests that contrary to Jephthah's vow, the daughter was in any way alive.

The boys who were killed by the bears, were not exempted from punishment.

No doubt your local jurisdiction burns people at the stake for double parking, and the whole community gathers at the town square with a picnic to consume while they watch and toast a few marshmallows in the flames.

To show, that Jehovah does not excuse young one for rebellion, we have this account...
(Ezekiel 9:5, 6) 5 And to the others he said in my hearing: “Go through the city after him and strike. Do not let your eye feel sorry, and do not feel any compassion. 6 Old man, young man, virgin, little child, and women you should kill off completely. But do not go near to any man on whom there is the mark...

Yep, that sounds like God all right! KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL!!!

Pregnant woman ripped open? Did you quote the verse?

It reads

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.​

No doubt you'd enjoy that too.

And don't tell me that God has any problems with infanticide or abortion.

 

[nPeace]

It reads

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.​

No doubt you'd enjoy that too.

Well if I warned you about jumping off cliffs, and I gave graphic details on how your skull will make contact with a rock, and split open, I am not the one bursting your head, and that doesn't mean I take delight in it.
Because God reveals the outcome of a wayward people, it doesn't mean he did what happened to them. Nor does it mean he takes delight in what happened.
They just got what they deserved.

And don't tell me that God has any problems with infanticide or abortion.

Why not?
Will you tell the judge who orders that you be put in front of a firing squad and shot dead, and your body dragged into a hole and buried, don't tell you about murder?
You don't get to judge the judge based on your own rules.
That's why those in authority have law books. To prevent people making their own, and imposing them.

(Romans 13:3, 4) 3 . . .Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.

This refers to secular authorities.
However, God is the supreme authority and judge.

 

[Bthoth]

Because God reveals the outcome of a wayward people, it doesn't mean he did what happened to them. Nor does it mean he takes delight in what happened.
They just got what they deserved.

OK....

You don't get to judge the judge based on your own rules.

No god wrote a word, bible torah tanakh or tablet.

Mankind created all word, rule and commandments. IN fact, with words mankind created a plethora of gods too.

That's why those in authority have law books. To prevent people making their own, and imposing them.

Sure....... mankind created the books, created the idea of who is in authority and yet require people to follow them.

NO god ever did.

(Romans 13:3, 4) 3 . . .Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.

All authority is secular. Secular from the previous religious authority.

This refers to secular authorities.

However, God is the supreme authority and judge.

But do you know what God is?

Except to take the opinion of a previous authority (man)?

 

[nPeace]

OK....

No god wrote a word, bible torah tanakh or tablet.

Mankind created all word, rule and commandments. IN fact, with words mankind created a plethora of gods too.

Sure....... mankind created the books, created the idea of who is in authority and yet require people to follow them.

NO god ever did.

All authority is secular. Secular from the previous religious authority.



But do you know what God is?

Except to take the opinion of a previous authority (man)?

According to you, you don't know any of that. Were you there?
I don't know of anyone who claims God wrote a book though.
Men wrote from God. That is what they say.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah was seen by many people, he ate fish, he told his friend that he was going to Galilee and secretly travelled that far, so he was delivered from the Cross in "near-dead" position and that signifies that he was only proverbial or poetic "dead", but very much alive otherwise, right?

Regards

They didn't recognize him at first,though,did they. No they did not. One might conclude therefore rightly so he had a different body from the one he had before that.

 

[YoursTrue]

According to you, you don't know any of that. Were you there?
I don't know of anyone who claims God wrote a book though.
Men wrote from God. That is what they say.

My question now to those who continually say the Bible is mythical, not written accurately, what portions exactly are they talking about?

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah was seen by many people, he ate fish, he told his friend that he was going to Galilee and secretly travelled that far, so he was delivered from the Cross in "near-dead" position and that signifies that he was only proverbial or poetic "dead", but very much alive otherwise, right?

Regards

They obviously had a problem in today's time recognizing the woman was not dead when they put the body bag over her.

 

[Soandso]

My question now to those who continually say the Bible is mythical, not written accurately, what portions exactly are they talking about?

Well Noah's ark comes to mind, to start with. The geological records go against the idea of a global flood, there's the heat problem, and there are no fossil records for nephilim style giants that existed before the flood as far as I'm aware. Plus there's the idea that a ship 25-35% the size of the Titanic (depending on how you measure cubits) could carry all those "kinds" of animals for any extended period of time. Then you have the problem of monophagous animals and how other animals with very specialized diets or living conditions could be kept on board without just dying out. I could keep going but honestly it all seems very mythical to me. Doesn't comport well with reality

 

[YoursTrue]

Well Noah's ark comes to mind, to start with. The geological records go against the idea of a global flood, there's the heat problem, and there are no fossil records for nephilim style giants that existed before the flood as far as I'm aware. Plus there's the idea that a ship 25-35% the size of the Titanic (depending on how you measure cubits) could carry all those "kinds" of animals for any extended period of time. Then you have the problem of monophagous animals and how other animals with very specialized diets or living conditions could be kept on board without just dying out. I could keep going but honestly it all seems very mythical to me. Doesn't comport well with reality

I figured that might be the first thing that came to mind. It is certainly an outstandingly astonishing event. I accept it as written, and because I believe what's written I look forward to meeting those who were there, like Noah and his wife and children. But there's more, much more. Including who wrote what, genealogy, dating processes and more. Insofar as the account of Noah, that is in the book of Genesis, right? I also figure many will argue with what's written about the creation account.

 

[Colt]

Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah was seen by many people, he ate fish, he told his friend that he was going to Galilee and secretly travelled that far, so he was delivered from the Cross in "near-dead" position and that signifies that he was only proverbial or poetic "dead", but very much alive otherwise, right?

Regards

No wrong!