If Jesus Died...

[Colt]

Well Noah's ark comes to mind, to start with. The geological records go against the idea of a global flood, there's the heat problem, and there are no fossil records for nephilim style giants that existed before the flood as far as I'm aware. Plus there's the idea that a ship 25-35% the size of the Titanic (depending on how you measure cubits) could carry all those "kinds" of animals for any extended period of time. Then you have the problem of monophagous animals and how other animals with very specialized diets or living conditions could be kept on board without just dying out. I could keep going but honestly it all seems very mythical to me. Doesn't comport well with reality

When the Israelites were rewriting their history in Babylon, they attempted to trace their blood lines back to Adam who they heard about from Mesopotamian religions. Finding it impossible to bridge the gap they decided to drown the entire world with the flood story. In order to account for multiple languages in distant cultures they claimed that God scrambled up (1) common language into many!

 

[Bthoth]

According to you, you don't know any of that. Were you there?

I know that no god wrote a word. That fact is non debatable.

I don't know of anyone who claims God wrote a book though.

So then why ask 'were you there'?

Men wrote from God. That is what they say.

Can i claim the same?

Would it matter to you?

 

[Bthoth]

Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah

Jesus was neither anointed as messiah nor had the christos (name of god)

was seen by many people, he ate fish, he told his friend that he was going to Galilee and secretly travelled that far,

You forgot thirsty.

so he was delivered from the Cross in "near-dead" position

Sure, passed out, unconscious but in that time period they had no idea how to tell the difference.

and that signifies that he was only proverbial or poetic "dead", but very much alive otherwise, right?

Regards

Could be.

If he walked after being put into the tomb, he was not dead.

That's the correct reality to observe.

 

[blü 2]

Well if I warned you about jumping off cliffs, and I gave graphic details on how your skull will make contact with a rock, and split open, I am not the one bursting your head, and that doesn't mean I take delight in it.
Because God reveals the outcome of a wayward people, it doesn't mean he did what happened to them.

It sets out [his] attitude to infanticide and abortion ─ just do it!

Nor does it mean he takes delight in what happened.

[He]'s God! [He] NEVER has to do anything that [he] doesn't take delight it.

They just got what they deserved.

I thought you'd say that.

You don't get to judge the judge based on your own rules.

When the judge's morality is that of a primitive barbarian, knowing no more than humans knew in the Bronze Age, indeed I do.

As you can see.

That's why those in authority have law books. To prevent people making their own, and imposing them.

The 'laws' you're talking about include 'Thou shalt not kill' but hey, who gives a proverbial when you're only killing other people?

However, God is the supreme authority and judge.

Yours, not mine. [He] didn't even exist until [his] appearance in Canaan around 1500 BCE, another addition to the pantheon of the Semitic Canaanite tribes (eg Exodus 20:3, Judges 11:23-24) with their cultural origins in Mesopotamia.

Luckily for you, in reality [he] never appears, never says and never does, and the evidence is overwhelming that [he]'s only a story.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well Noah's ark comes to mind, to start with. The geological records go against the idea of a global flood, there's the heat problem, and there are no fossil records for nephilim style giants that existed before the flood as far as I'm aware. Plus there's the idea that a ship 25-35% the size of the Titanic (depending on how you measure cubits) could carry all those "kinds" of animals for any extended period of time. Then you have the problem of monophagous animals and how other animals with very specialized diets or living conditions could be kept on board without just dying out. I could keep going but honestly it all seems very mythical to me. Doesn't comport well with reality

I understand it appears to be incredible to a certain extent. And even though geologists may proclaim ideas against a worldwide flood at that time, I am not convinced they are right. Also as some may know, I have definite reservations against time telling of the elements, such as soil, rocks, and things like that. That includes fossils insofar as dating them. I have said more than once, the Bible's use of day in the creation account certainly in my opinion insofar as balancing reality and what the Bible says about what the word day may mean, does not necessarily mean a 24-hour period but can be much, much longer in reference to timing. I know the account about Noah's ark seems hard to understand yet I believe the Bible is the word of God and I accept the account as genuine and truthful. Obviously I know not everyone will agree with that.

 

[Soandso]

I understand it appears to be incredible to a certain extent.

Incredible to a certain extent? Everything in the Bible reads like myths and legends. Moses has a literal pokemon duel with Egyptian sorcerers where his staff that turned into a snake fought and ate the other sorcerer's staffs that also turned into snakes (exodus 7:10-12). How does that not read like mythology?

And even though geologists may proclaim ideas against a worldwide flood at that time, I am not convinced they are right.

Well, these are men and women who are uniquely interested in a topic they've devoted their lives to studying and perfecting knowledge of. Are they wrong? Misled? Why are you unconvinced? Is their evidence bad?

Also as some may know, I have definite reservations against time telling of the elements, such as soil, rocks, and things like that.

Again, why? Sediment layers tell a story. When there are layers of volcanic ash, we can know that there was a volcano eruption in the distant past. How? We can see that happen now with modern eruptions like Mt. St. Helens and how it's created a layer of volcanic ash on modern day soil. That's just ash, and doesn't include all the other events we can see just by looking into the other layers of soil further down. Layer after layer

I understand in YEC beliefs that layers of soil are due to the turbulence of water tearing up the land as it rushed through then it settled naturally after the turbulence subsided, but how is it going to set up nice and neat layers that tell a very consistent story of many events that match what happens and can be verified with tree rings or ice core samples that go back thousands and thousands of years

That includes fossils insofar as dating them.

Again, why?... Where does this suspicion come from and what has the scientific community done to earn your distrust?

I have said more than once, the Bible's use of day in the creation account certainly in my opinion insofar as balancing reality and what the Bible says about what the word day may mean, does not necessarily mean a 24-hour period but can be much, much longer in reference to timing.

I mean, you can do that if you want, but it's certainly not a strong stance to take. People aren't going to find it convincing who aren't already convinced. It feels like cope and less like a legitimate position with a strong foundation

I know the account about Noah's ark seems hard to understand yet I believe the Bible is the word of God and I accept the account as genuine and truthful.

Oh no, Noah's Ark is very easy to understand. It's seemingly mythological tale that was taken from an earlier Sumerian mythological tale and changed to make more sense within the context of ancient iron age Jewish mythology. This happens all the time with other mythological stories the world over from ancient times to modern day

As for your second point, that's all well and fine for you, but what you originally said was this:

My question now to those who continually say the Bible is mythical, not written accurately, what portions exactly are they talking about?

There's a lot to point to, and there's a lot of other ancient bronze and iron age belief systems to compare and contrast to, and they look very very similar unsurprisingly. It seems like more than a coincidence to me

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said:
Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah

Jesus was neither anointed as messiah nor had the christos (name of god)

How correct you are?:

1. Jesus was neither anointed as messiah
2. nor had the christos (name of god)

Very good points indeed.

Regards
_____________

Messiah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus was neither anointed as messiah nor had the christos (name of god)

How correct you are?:

1. Jesus was neither anointed as messiah
2. nor had the christos (name of god)

"Was it Martha’s sister Mary or Mary Magdalene who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears and dried them with her hair?​

BY ANN NAFFZIGER AUGUST 12, 2011
It takes some detective work to parse out the information about the various Marys mentioned in the gospels. The episode you mention is particularly confusing because there are four different accounts with varied details in each of the four gospels.
Mark and Matthew both mention an unnamed woman who anoints Jesus’ head with either nard or ointment. Luke tells us of an unnamed woman “who was a sinner” who bathed Jesus’ feet with her tears, anointed them with ointment, and dried them with her hair. Then, to add even more confusion, John describes Mary of Bethany, aka Martha’s sister, anointing his feet with nard and wiping them with her hair. Only in John’s gospel is the woman named as Mary of Bethany.
That said, none of the accounts suggest any involvement by Mary Magdalene. If indeed there was a historical event of a woman anointing Jesus in a particularly extravagant way, we will simply never know who it was that enacted such a loving gesture for Jesus. Perhaps it was Mary, Martha’s sister, or perhaps it was done by another woman whose name has been lost to us forever."

Was it Martha’s sister Mary or Mary Magdalene who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears and dried them with her hair? - Busted Halo

It takes some detective work to parse out the information about the various Marys mentioned in the gospels. The episode you mention is particularly confusing…

bustedhalo.com

Right?

Regards

 

[Muffled]

a... no one knows for certain, if he was dead
b...... not even a spear to the chest proves he was dead. Heck most had no idea what a heart was to a living thing back in the 1st century AD.

Those are the key points. Just because the story sounds like they made sure. In reality, the people of the time period had no idea how to even take a pulse.

I believe if anyone should know it is a soldier who sees death often and knows how to deal a death blow.

 

[Muffled]

paarsurrey said:
Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah


How correct you are?:

1. Jesus was neither anointed as messiah
2. nor had the christos (name of god)

Very good points indeed.

Regards
_____________

Messiah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I believe there is nothing in the OT about anointing a Messiah. Kings could be anointed by a prophet of God but Jesus being God does not need that.

I have no idea where the idea of the word Christos should mean anything but Messiah.

 

[paarsurrey]

a... no one knows for certain, if he was dead
b...... not even a spear to the chest proves he was dead. Heck most had no idea what a heart was to a living thing back in the 1st century AD.

Those are the key points. Just because the story sounds like they made sure. In reality, the people of the time period had no idea how to even take a pulse.

I agree with you here, as "Shroud of Turin" shows that Jesus's heart was pumping when he was laid in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, so Jesus was most certainly not dead, right?:
"
Dr. Theodor Hirt, a professor of a German University.

“Once death has ensued, blood circulation in the human body follows the same law. At one moment a person’s skin may still be a reddish flesh-color because the blood penetrates to the capillaries, the hair-thin vessels just below the surface of the skin. But when the heart stops pumping, by the same law of nature that applies to the test with the glass tube, the veins draw the blood back. As a result, the capillaries are the first vessels to be emptied of blood

because they are at the extreme end of the circulatory system. As the blood retracts, the skin of the deceased turns white.”

“This is what happens to a corpse some eight to ten hours after the heart has ceased to beat not only does no blood flow from open wounds because there is no pressure, but the blood retracts a little in the veins.”

“But what happens [at the removal of the crown of thorns] if there is blood pressure – that is, if the heart is still beating? The little wounds fill with blood; the blood flows from the head into the hair; and because it keeps flowing, it trickles through the hair onto the Shroud as we can see on the Shroud of Jesus. That is why it cannot have been a corpse that was in the Shroud the body was not dead. We can all see the evidence on the Shroud, as revealed by a camera nineteen hundred years later and the camera does not lie. It is so obvious and easy to understand that I am certain you have followed my reasoning.”26*
*26. Jesus did not Perish on the Cross (Jesus Nicht am Kreuz gestorben) – Kurt Berna. Zurich, Switzerland, 1975 – Extracts from account of Dr. Theodor Hirt – pp.46-69

The Shroud of Turin

An introduction and historical background to the blessed cloth that has incited intense debate amongst scholars, historians and millions of religious followers around the world.

www.reviewofreligions.org

Right?

Regards

 

[Bthoth]

I believe if anyone should know it is a soldier who sees death often and knows how to deal a death blow.

Did he write an account? Is there a death certificate written anywhere? The story claims jesus was entombed within hours and was seen walking later on.

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe if anyone should know it is a soldier (centurion) who sees death often and knows how to deal a death blow.

Did he write an account? Is there a death certificate written anywhere? The story claims jesus was entombed within hours and was seen walking later on.

Very right:

1. " We propose that something was put into the sour wine to cause Jesus to lose consciousness: it was expected that Jesus would then die quickly of asphyxiation. That was probably done with the centurion’s acquiescence—because to do otherwise would have been dangerous—and the centurion acquiesced because of his sympathy for Jesus (as per the biblical story, quoted in Excursus 2)."
2. "When Jesus drank from the sponge, his diving response was strongly activated, as discussed above. Drinking from the sponge also caused Jesus to rapidly lose consciousness. In his physical position, Jesus could not breathe; so the diving response thereafter remained strongly activated. The loss of consciousness also accentuated the diving response. To summarize, we propose that Jesus remained alive, but non-breathing and with his diving response activated, from the time he seemingly died until the time his body was taken down from the cross."
3. " To conclude this subsection, we note that the scenario described above is somewhat like the swoon hypothesis. The scenario, though, is medically verisimilar. "

https://www.informath.org/Illusory_Death.pdf

^ Worth reading, please, right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

there is nothing in the OT about anointing a Messiah

I agree with one here:
" Anointed One, the fulfillment of the three OT offices which God anointed (selected and set apart for special service) "
"Three offices were anointed in the OT, priest, prophets and kings. Those who were anointed were chosen, designated, appointed, given authority, qualified, and equipped for the specific office and tasks."
" To anoint someone in the Bible was to commission them for service. "

The Messiah - The Anointed One | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

So, it has nothing to do with putting oil on somebody, please, right?

Regards
__________________
Was the Messiah anointed?
"In Jewish eschatology, the term came to refer to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who will be "anointed" with holy anointing oil, to be king of God's kingdom, and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age. In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God."
Messiah - Wikipedia
wikipedia.org
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Messiah

 

[Colt]

Did he write an account? Is there a death certificate written anywhere? The story claims jesus was entombed within hours and was seen walking later on.

No, Jesus deliberately didn't write an account lest it become a fetish. There were no "death certificates". Jesus returned from death because he's a divine being and could do that. He appeared to a number of believers over a period of a month then returned to heaven.

Jesus is the Son of God not the Jewish Messiah. The Messiah never materialized.

 

[Bthoth]

No, Jesus deliberately didn't write an account lest it become a fetish.

Agreed, Jesus did not write the NT. Not one word.

There were no "death certificates".

So books are written about Jesus but not one document on his death to certify that he died on a cross or hill.

Jesus returned from death because he's a divine being and could do that.

From the story but no evidence of being dead.

He appeared to a number of believers over a period of a month then returned to heaven.

He went to gallilee Matt 28:7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”

Jesus is the Son of God not the Jewish Messiah. The Messiah never materialized.

So why does anyone call him messiah? Or even christ messiah?

 

[Colt]

Agreed, Jesus did not write the NT. Not one word.

So books are written about Jesus but not one document on his death to certify that he died on a cross or hill.

From the story but no evidence of being dead.

He went to gallilee Matt 28:7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”


So why does anyone call him messiah? Or even christ messiah?

There were no death certificates given out in that age.

The followers of Jesus believed Jesus was the Messiah that was expected by the Israelites. They had somewhat inflexible expectations based on their own speculation. Jesus was more than a deliver for the Jews, he was a savior for ALL the world, even the Son of God, not a priest/prophet/king of the self described "chosen people".

Jesus allowed his followers to think what they needed to think in order to follow him. After Jesus left his followers forced Jesus more into the expected Messiah mold. They forced Jesus into Old testament scriptures in justification of their belief in him.

There were murky prophetic predictions about the coming of a deliver which were the basis for the formation of a hardened concept of the Jewish Messiah becuse the coming of the Son of God down to earth was revealed to seers and prophets for ages. But Jesus could never fit the specific office of the Jews conception.

 

[paarsurrey]

Colt said:
No, Jesus deliberately didn't write an account lest it become a

Agreed, Jesus did not write the NT. Not one word.

But did Jesus ever claim that he won't write anything "deliberately", he never said that, please, right?

Regards
.

 

[Bthoth]

.

No idea what HE said directly, as I was not there while he was alive to witness in fact.

 

[Colt]

Colt said:
No, Jesus deliberately didn't write an account lest it become a

But did Jesus ever claim that he won't write anything "deliberately", he never said that, please, right?

Regards
.

Yes, in my holy book he did! He also forbid the Apostles to write anything down until after he left.

PLANS FOR PUBLIC WORK​

136:4.1 Day by day, up in the hills, Jesus formulated the plans for the remainder of his Urantia bestowal. He first decided not to teach contemporaneously with John. He planned to remain in comparative retirement until the work of John achieved its purpose, or until John was suddenly stopped by imprisonment. Jesus well knew that John’s fearless and tactless preaching would presently arouse the fears and enmity of the civil rulers. In view of John’s precarious situation, Jesus began definitely to plan his program of public labors in behalf of his people and the world, in behalf of every inhabited world throughout his vast universe. Michael’s mortal bestowal was on Urantia but for all worlds of Nebadon.

136:4.2 The first thing Jesus did, after thinking through the general plan of co-ordinating his program with John’s movement, was to review in his mind the instructions of Immanuel. Carefully he thought over the advice given him concerning his methods of labor, and that he was to leave no permanent writing on the planet. Never again did Jesus write on anything except sand. On his next visit to Nazareth, much to the sorrow of his brother Joseph, Jesus destroyed all of his writing that was preserved on the boards about the carpenter shop, and which hung upon the walls of the old home. And Jesus pondered well over Immanuel’s advice pertaining to his economic, social, and political attitude toward the world as he should find it.

“The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

UB, the talk with Nathaniel.

159:4.7 “The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

159:4.8 “Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

159:4.9 “But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scripture is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

159:4.10 “But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.”