If Jesus Died...

[Colt]

And he is called the son because he's either equal to his father or just has that designation?

Not equal to the Father obviously, subordinate to the Father, of origin in the Father. A chip off the ole block.

 

[Colt]

If I don't see death it means to me that I died without knowing I was dying, like instantly or maybe in my sleep.

Which is true for most, but in the case of Elijah and Enoch they didn't die from old age, accident, murder etc, they were instantly consumed and awoke in the next life. They were finished on earth. Jesus could have taken the same route but he chose to lay his life down in a different way.

 

[YoursTrue]

I have no faith in a Satan God. Human bodies die, the salvaged sons of God are resurrected in a new form. Those who aren't saved will be destroyed, no record that they ever existed.

Eve certainly had faith in the one using the serpent to communicate with her, he was later identified as the devil.

 

[Colt]

Eve certainly had faith in the one using the serpent to communicate with her, he was later identified as the devil.

True, but he was defeated and taken away when the Son was on earth. Satan's delusion was the belief that he could ever be God of this world. Some Christians talk constantly about what Satan is doing here and there. They claim that when you disagree with their claims then it must be Satan. People claim that their own temptations come from the Devil.

 

[YoursTrue]

True, but he was defeated and taken away when the Son was on earth. Satan's delusion was the belief that he could ever be God of this world. Some Christians talk constantly about what Satan is doing here and there. They claim that when you disagree with their claims then it must be Satan. People claim that their own temptations come from the Devil.

Ok remember when Jesus spoke to the Devil when he was in the wilderness. The Devil said he would give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world IF Jesus would do one act of worship to him

 

[Dimi95]

2 timothy 3:15-17

"and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training in righteousness,so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Whoever has studied the Bible knows that every verse can connect with the other.

@nPeace
Can you give your opinion about this verse, i would like to see it.

Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

 

[nPeace]

No, I never said Enoch or Elijah died a normal death, they were translated to heaven.

I know exactly what you said. There is no need to repeat.
Elijah was not transported to heaven, according to the scriptures, is what I said.

Those who study the scriptures, know this.
(John 3:13) 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
(2 Chronicles 21:12) 12 Eventually a written message came to him from E·liʹjah the prophet, saying: “This is what Jehovah the God of David your forefather says, ‘You have not walked in the ways of your father Je·hoshʹa·phat or in the ways of King Aʹsa of Judah.

As you should be able to see, the one who is from heaven, has spoken, and the one whom people claim was taken to heaven, wrote and sent a letter after his alleged heavenly calling.
There are plenty other scriptures that show plainly that no person went to heaven prior to Jesus' ascension.
Jesus is the firstfruit to God. Not Enoch. Not Elijah, and certainly not Colt.

They had pleased God on earth and were finished their spiritual growth here. Elijah's body was consumed by spiritual flames the instant that he went to heaven.

Wow.
The things one hear.

2Kings2

11 As they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Hebrews 11

"By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Exactly why no one mourned Elijah, because they knew he did not see death. He was alive, serving in another assignment on earth.

Almost forgot to mention...
.You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. . . (1 Corinthians 15:36)

 

[Colt]

Ok remember when Jesus spoke to the Devil when he was in the wilderness. The Devil said he would give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world IF Jesus would do one act of worship to him

Yes, that doesn’t make sense.

 

[Colt]

I know exactly what you said. There is no need to repeat.
Elijah was not transported to heaven, according to the scriptures, is what I said.

Those who study the scriptures, know this.
(John 3:13) 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
(2 Chronicles 21:12) 12 Eventually a written message came to him from E·liʹjah the prophet, saying: “This is what Jehovah the God of David your forefather says, ‘You have not walked in the ways of your father Je·hoshʹa·phat or in the ways of King Aʹsa of Judah.

As you should be able to see, the one who is from heaven, has spoken, and the one whom people claim was taken to heaven, wrote and sent a letter after his alleged heavenly calling.
There are plenty other scriptures that show plainly that no person went to heaven prior to Jesus' ascension.
Jesus is the firstfruit to God. Not Enoch. Not Elijah, and certainly not Colt.


Wow.
The things one hear.



Exactly why no one mourned Elijah, because they knew he did not see death. He was alive, serving in another assignment on earth.

Almost forgot to mention...
.You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. . . (1 Corinthians 15:36)

You added Elijah serving another assignment on earth. Bible says Enoch and Elijah went to heaven.

 

[nPeace]

2 timothy 3:15-17

"and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training in righteousness,so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Whoever has studied the Bible knows that every verse can connect with the other.

@nPeace
Can you give your opinion about this verse, i would like to see it.

Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Hey apostle, 95? Is that 1995? Just teasing.

You quoted a very good scripture - 2 timothy 3:15-17.
Then you followed that up with a very accurate statement.
Then you asked me to forget all of that, and do something that you basically said not to do - give you my opinion.

I can walk you to the scriptures that connect, and that will allow the scriptures to answer your question.

(Acts 17:26-29) 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’ 29 “Therefore, since we are the children of God,. . .

(Luke 3:23-38) 23 When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heʹli, 24 son of Matʹthat, son of Leʹvi, son of Melʹchi, son of Janʹna·i, son of Joseph, ... 38 son of Eʹnosh, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

I get to see how good you are at connecting.

 

[nPeace]

You added Elijah serving another assignment on earth. Bible says Enoch and Elijah went to heaven.

Then you believe Jesus lied, as well as Paul, and the other apostles. Yes?
Jesus said, no man ascended to heaven. Yes? Or No?

 

[nPeace]

You added Elijah serving another assignment on earth. Bible says Enoch and Elijah went to heaven.

Elijah became a superman.
(1 Kings 18:45, 46) 45 . . .And Aʹhab kept riding and made his way to Jezʹre·el. 46 And the very hand of Jehovah proved to be upon E·liʹjah, so that he girded up his hips and went running ahead of Aʹhab all the way to Jezʹre·el.

Where did he go? Another assignment. God transported him, because a man cannot outrun horses.

 

[Colt]

Then you believe Jesus lied, as well as Paul, and the other apostles. Yes?
Jesus said, no man ascended to heaven. Yes? Or No?

John 3:13) 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

BTW, when did Jesus ascend into heaven prior to descending from heaven? Because at the time of this peculiar statement to Nicodemus, Jesus had not yet ascended back to heaven?

If this is an accurate translation from Aramaic to Greek then it contradicts Enoch and Elijah translating to heaven. Or maybe translating directly to heaven differs from an ascension.

 

[Dimi95]

Hey apostle, 95? Is that 1995? Just teasing.

You quoted a very good scripture - 2 timothy 3:15-17.
Then you followed that up with a very accurate statement.
Then you asked me to forget all of that, and do something that you basically said not to do - give you my opinion.

I can walk you to the scriptures that connect, and that will allow the scriptures to answer your question.

(Acts 17:26-29) 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’ 29 “Therefore, since we are the children of God,. . .

(Luke 3:23-38) 23 When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heʹli, 24 son of Matʹthat, son of Leʹvi, son of Melʹchi, son of Janʹna·i, son of Joseph, ... 38 son of Eʹnosh, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

I get to see how good you are at connecting.

1995 , guilty as charged and where i come from is connected with Timothy

I do think that Scripture is all we need , but i want to discuss some 'ideas'.

Why i say that ?
Well , John 14:12
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

Matthew 5:6.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled"

Matthew 18:20
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there among them"

So my question is,
Can "Son of Man" be called "Evarlasting Father" according to Scriptute?

Son of Man is what i study consistenlty and i have traced 'possible' pattern to Abel , Cain and Seth.

 

[Dimi95]

Hey apostle, 95? Is that 1995? Just teasing.

You quoted a very good scripture - 2 timothy 3:15-17.
Then you followed that up with a very accurate statement.
Then you asked me to forget all of that, and do something that you basically said not to do - give you my opinion.

I can walk you to the scriptures that connect, and that will allow the scriptures to answer your question.

(Acts 17:26-29) 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’ 29 “Therefore, since we are the children of God,. . .

(Luke 3:23-38) 23 When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heʹli, 24 son of Matʹthat, son of Leʹvi, son of Melʹchi, son of Janʹna·i, son of Joseph, ... 38 son of Eʹnosh, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

I get to see how good you are at connecting.

I will explain also what i mean

I watch a lot of debates and try to find precise answers for difficult questions
One of the question that bothered me was from one Muslim who quoted Isaiah 9:6 and asked , "Is Jesus the Evarlasting Father"? and our fellow Christian did not answer.So i said to myself : if he can't answer , that doesnt mean it's not there, and i went threw the Bible.

So , as we agreed on Scriptute , i also belive that every passage is there to conect and also to be separated from others in wisdom.

So
1 John 2:20-23
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

This has to do with heavenly and earthly positions as explained in,

1 Corinthians 15:40
"There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another."

Son of Man - earthly position
Evarlasting Father - heavenly position

Different body , but same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:4
"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work."

So can we say that the Jesus is the Father?
Yes , since John 10:30 says:
"The Father and I are one"

I respect other people experience and knowledge , that's why i ask is it wrong to say it like this?

 

[nPeace]

John 3:13) 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

BTW, when did Jesus ascend into heaven prior to descending from heaven? Because at the time of this peculiar statement to Nicodemus, Jesus had not yet ascended back to heaven?

If this is an accurate translation from Aramaic to Greek then it contradicts Enoch and Elijah translating to heaven. Or maybe translating directly to heaven differs from an ascension.

That is usually the next best effort, which tends to follow an attempt at twisting the scriptures - which you haven't done... yet.
"Oh, there must have been some mistake with translating the text. Something is wrong with the text."

No. Something is wrong with the belief that forced its way upon 2nd century Christians - the idea that heaven is every believer's destination away from this "wretched" earth.
This contradicts scripture, including the unbreakable covenant to Abraham - Genesis 22:18.

So, yes the entire Bible contradicts the idea that Enoch and Elijah were transfered to heaven.
Jesus was pretty accurate in referring to his imminent ascension, as he was accurate about no one going to heaven... before him. What?
(1 Corinthians 15:20) . . .Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.
(Colossians 1:18) ...He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things;

 

[Colt]

That is usually the next best effort, which tends to follow an attempt at twisting the scriptures - which you haven't done... yet.
"Oh, there must have been some mistake with translating the text. Something is wrong with the text."

No. Something is wrong with the belief that forced its way upon 2nd century Christians - the idea that heaven is every believer's destination away from this "wretched" earth.
This contradicts scripture, including the unbreakable covenant to Abraham - Genesis 22:18.

So, yes the entire Bible contradicts the idea that Enoch and Elijah were transfered to heaven.
Jesus was pretty accurate in referring to his imminent ascension, as he was accurate about no one going to heaven... before him. What?
(1 Corinthians 15:20) . . .Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.
(Colossians 1:18) ...He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things;

The author of 2Kings wasn’t a 2nd century Christian.

2Kings2

11 As they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[YoursTrue]

Which is true for most, but in the case of Elijah and Enoch they didn't die from old age, accident, murder etc, they were instantly consumed and awoke in the next life. They were finished on earth. Jesus could have taken the same route but he chose to lay his life down in a different way.

In response, Colt, many of us know if we're very sick or have a terrible accident that we may expect death. Healthy people know they will possibly die in the future but in general they are not thinking it will happen soon. In Elijah's and Enoch's case they did not look death in the eye, so to speak. They were taken in death...gone...no forewarning... merciful provision from God. And the people knew about it otherwise it wouldn't have been recorded for us to read about now.

 

[nPeace]

@Apostle95 it's good to ask questions.
It's important to know whom to ask. That's not as difficult as it may seem.
Jehovah's Witnesses are always in the neighborhood, knocking doors, or standing on the streets, with their literature, and the sword close at hand.

Many people have come to learn one fact about them. "If you ask them a question, they will grab their sword and use it. You can be sure they will answer your questions, using the Bible."
True, some people are skeptical of them. Some scared as well. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and people listen to it.

To answer your question...
If you use the scriptures I referenced...
(Acts 17:26-29) 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’ 29 “Therefore, since we are the children of God,. . .

(Luke 3:23-38) 23 When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heʹli, 24 son of Matʹthat, son of Leʹvi, son of Melʹchi, son of Janʹna·i, son of Joseph, ... 38 son of Eʹnosh, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

You should get this;.
First man - Adam; Sold his children - all mankind - into sin and death, and separation from God... the heavenly father.
Second man - Jesus Christ - redeemed mankind, from sin and death, and bought them back into a relationship with God... the heavenly father...
Jesus took the place of our forefather Adam.

Not only that, but Jesus gives life, literally.
(John 5:21) . . .For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.
(1 Corinthians 15:45) So it is written: The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

Jesus became lifegiver - Father.
Not that Jesus replaces God, since, when he accomplishes all things, Jesus then hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, then subjects himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

Would you say those scriptures made a good connection, in addressing the question?

 

[nPeace]

The author of 2Kings wasn’t a 2nd century Christian.

Not sure what you are trying to say.

2Kings2

11 As they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Yes, and so do the birds.