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If Jesus Died...

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
That scripture says Jesus went to the new heavens?
I'm not seeing it. Um. Give me till tomorrow. I need to check the optician to see if there is something on my eyes.


Heavenly man???
That's an interesting choice of words.
King James Bible
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

New King James Version
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Is this the verse that says Jesus went to the new heavens?
I'm not seeing it sorry. My eyes must be really bad. I've got to get them checked.


Still not seeing it. Sorry.
Could you use the biggest font, and quote the part that says Jesus went to the new heavens. That might help. Thanks.
I love all the Bible , not just Matthew

But since you said Matthew , here we go

Matthew 13:
"Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.This is why I speak to them in parables:
'Though seeing, they do not see;though hearing, they do not hear or understand.'
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
You will be ever hearing but never understanding;you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;they hardly hear with their ears,and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,hear with their ears,understand with their hearts,and turn, and I would heal them.’

The New heavens is New Jerusalem?
Okay. So the New Heavens is Jesus' Wife? Jesus marries the New Heavens?
How then did Jesus ascend to the New Heavens, if the Saints needed to wait until Jesus descended with the voice of an archangel, and the dead in Christ would then rise?
How did you come up with that conclusion?

2 timothy 3:15-17

"and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training in righteousness,so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Whoever has studied the Bible knows that every verse can connect with the other.

These word look familiar.

Why jumping to another explenation when you have it in the same gospel , same chapter.

You don't have a problem with Matthew, I hope.
I love Matthew

Okay. So we both agree they were taken out of this life... to their grave?
Scripture says that they were taken, that's it.They did not expirience physical death.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I love all the Bible , not just Matthew

But since you said Matthew , here we go

Matthew 13:
"Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.This is why I speak to them in parables:
'Though seeing, they do not see;though hearing, they do not hear or understand.'
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
You will be ever hearing but never understanding;you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;they hardly hear with their ears,and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,hear with their ears,understand with their hearts,and turn, and I would heal them.’
How did you come up with that conclusion?
Is New Jerusalem not the lamb's wife - the bride of Christ?

I asked you to describe the New heavens, and you quoted
Revelation 21
"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."
Weren't you describing the New heavens?
Were you describing the New heavens as the bride and groom then?

Why jumping to another explenation when you have it in the same gospel , same chapter.
Does the four Gospels not contain different details, where one account fills in details another left out?

I love Matthew
I'm confused then.
You aren't complaining that I went to Matthew, where Jesus explains the transfiguration is a vision?

Scripture says that they were taken, that's it.
Okay.

They did not expirience physical death.
Doesn't say that.
Where did you read that?

Also, are you saying that Enoch and Elijah did not die?

Also, do you agree the Bible tells us Jesus went to heaven, wher God dwells, and not the New Heavens?
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Is that why, he walked out of the tomb?
They claim he wasn't in the tomb. Just the body.
They claim that he was in heaven those three days.
Then he came down; took the body, and walked out alive.
This contradicts Acts 2:30-32; Acts 3:15; 1 Peter 3:18, and many other scriptures.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Is New Jerusalem not the lamb's wife - the bride of Christ?

I asked you to describe the New heavens, and you quoted

Weren't you describing the New heavens?
Were you describing the New heavens as the bride and groom then?
Let me explain you better

Ephesians 5
"For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."

Does the four Gospels not contain different details, where one account fills in details another left out?
What is left out in Luke?

I'm confused then.
You aren't complaining that I went to Matthew, where Jesus explains the transfiguration is a vision?
No you got me wrong
How can you prove that the passage in Luke does not over-rule that connection with Matthew?

Doesn't say that.
Where did you read that?
Hebrews 11:5
"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: 'He could not be found, because God had taken him away.'For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

and

"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."

Also, are you saying that Enoch and Elijah did not die?
No,they died , as explained in Hebrews 11 , but they did not expirience physical death because they were taken by God.

Also, do you agree the Bible tells us Jesus went to heaven, wher God dwells, and not the New Heavens?
I agree with the first , i disagree with the second since scripture says :
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Let me explain you better

Ephesians 5
"For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."


What is left out in Luke?


No you got me wrong
How can you prove that the passage in Luke does not over-rule that connection with Matthew?


Hebrews 11:5
"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: 'He could not be found, because God had taken him away.'For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

and

"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."


No,they died , as explained in Hebrews 11 , but they did not expirience physical death because they were taken by God.


I agree with the first , i disagree with the second since scripture says :
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."
"Christ also loved the church"
Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, never went to a Christian-Church, not to speak of loving it, the author of
Ephesians has wrongly accused him in this connection, please, right?

Regards
 

Will Due

Member
It's very fascinating reading the interpretations of what the Bible says. To a certain degree, it all seems very confused and uncertain what's actually meant that's written in the Bible. So what's the solution? Well, Jesus, the creator and ruler of the universe certainly has the power to inform us outside of biblical sources or any other source. That was what he did when he was here incarnate. So today, since he's not physically present, he's seen to it that something else is here to inform us.

It's the Urantia Book.
 
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Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, never went to a Christian-Church, not to speak of loving it, the author of
Ephesians has wrongly accused him in this connection, please, right?

Regards
We are the Church,Christians.
Spiritual , not materialized!

John 4
"Woman 'Jesus replied' believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem."

And

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Let me explain you better
1 Corinthians 15:
"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? "
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Let me explain you better

Ephesians 5
"For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."
You didn't explain anything.
Are you saying yes, Jesus is married to New Jerusalem, which is the New Heavens?
Do you consider quoting a scripture, explaining, when your mind and what's in it, are not scripture.

A question to clarify or understand what you are trying to say isn't answered by quoting another scripture.
It just makes the gap wider, because the first scripture doesn't fit an explanation. Nor the second... and so on.

It's best to explain in your own words, what you believe or are saying, and put the scripture with it.
For example, I asked...
Is New Jerusalem not the lamb's wife - the bride of Christ?

If you agree, a simple yes, won't kill anyone.
If you place the scriptures after, one sees that you are answering from the Bible.
You can distance people pretty fast, if they aren't seeing a straightforward answer after a minute following a question.

I asked...
Weren't you describing the New heavens?
Were you describing the New heavens as the bride and groom then?

Quoting that scripture, would lead most... I believe... to conclude that you believe that New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ, but does it tell the person if you believe the New Jerusalem is the New Heavens, or something else?
It does not address that... which is the question, for clarification.

What is left out in Luke?
Luke does not contain the detail that the transfiguration is a vision. Matthew does.

No you got me wrong
How can you prove that the passage in Luke does not over-rule that connection with Matthew?
Overrule??? What do you mean? Thr Gospel writers are against each other?
You don't think the four Gospels support each other? I do.

Hebrews 11:5
"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: 'He could not be found, because God had taken him away.'For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

and

"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."
so that he did not experience death
living by faith when they died


Yes. So they died, right?

No,they died , as explained in Hebrews 11 , but they did not expirience physical death because they were taken by God.
You keep saying it, but you still have not produced that scripture.
I'll wait... however long it takes. :)

I agree with the first , i disagree with the second since scripture says :
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."
I'll wait for this one too. Where in the scriptures did you read that Jesus ascended to the new heavens?
How ever long it takes. :)

I have gray hairs, so don't take forever. ;)
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
We are the Church,Christians.
Spiritual , not materialized!

John 4
"Woman 'Jesus replied' believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem."

And

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Let me explain you better
1 Corinthians 15:
"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? "
Will one quote from Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, in first person, in this connection, please, right??

Regards
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
It's very fascinating reading the interpretations of what the Bible says. To a certain degree, it all seems very confused and uncertain what's actually meant that's written in the Bible. So what's the solution? Well, Jesus, the creator and ruler of the universe certainly has the power to inform us outside of biblical sources or any other source. That was what he did when he was here incarnate. So today, since he's not physically present, he's seen to it that something else is here to inform us.

It's the Urantia Book.
That's the whole idea of Satan's plan - Use false religion and its members to create a huge morass, so that people turn away from Christianity and the Bible, and look elsewhere... to his sources.

The guy is a master at his crafty devices... and they work effectively too.
He has reeled in so many fish, he could fill the whole of Russia, North and South America, and China, with little room for breathing.

This is how Jesus illustrated the situation.
(Matthew 13:24-30) 24 He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
It's very fascinating reading the interpretations of what the Bible says. To a certain degree, it all seems very confused and uncertain what's actually meant that's written in the Bible. So what's the solution? Well, Jesus, the creator and ruler of the universe certainly has the power to inform us outside of biblical sources or any other source. That was what he did when he was here incarnate. So today, since he's not physically present, he's seen to it that something else is here to inform us.

It's the Urantia Book.
IMG_9731.jpeg
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
(2 Corinthians 2:11) . . .we are not ignorant of Satan's designs. . .
It's easy to recognize Satan's works.
Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.  It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15)

First, they pretend that they are using the Bible as the basis for their beliefs, all the while not revealing their real source.
Then they quote scriptures, as if they really believe them, twisting them, while accusing the Christian of twisting and dismissing the scriptures.
When they fail to win out against the scriptures, they play the card they can no longer hide - they expose their MO - make it look like the Bible is one confused mess.
Satan is such a loser.

He knows he has lost, but the more he has on the losing side, he considers that a win.
So, I guess he won... in his mind.

The winners can see that the problem is not the Bible , but persons who claim to represent it, but really do not.
 
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Will Due

Member
Here's something pertinent from the Urantia Book:

"And then went Jesus over to Abila, where Nathaniel and his associates labored. Nathaniel was much bothered by some of Jesus’ pronouncements which seemed to detract from the authority of the recognized Hebrew scriptures. Accordingly, on this night, after the usual period of questions and answers, Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: “Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings—the best as I view it—and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?” When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:

“Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.

“These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.

“Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain. If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men. The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness. The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.

“Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies—men, women, and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God. The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. Have you not noted that the concepts of Yahweh grow in beauty and glory as the prophets make their records from Samuel to Isaiah? And you should remember that the Scriptures are intended for religious instruction and spiritual guidance. They are not the works of either historians or philosophers.

"The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem. And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom. Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people. Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.

“The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

“Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

“But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

“But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things non-spiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.”

Nathaniel was enlightened, and shocked, by the Master’s pronouncement. He long pondered this talk in the depths of his soul, but he told no man concerning this conference until after Jesus’ ascension; and even then he feared to impart the full story of the Master’s instruction.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Here's something pertinent from the Urantia Book:

"And then went Jesus over to Abila, where Nathaniel and his associates labored. Nathaniel was much bothered by some of Jesus’ pronouncements which seemed to detract from the authority of the recognized Hebrew scriptures. Accordingly, on this night, after the usual period of questions and answers, Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: “Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings—the best as I view it—and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?” When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:

“Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.

“These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.

“Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain. If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men. The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness. The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.

“Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies—men, women, and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God. The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. Have you not noted that the concepts of Yahweh grow in beauty and glory as the prophets make their records from Samuel to Isaiah? And you should remember that the Scriptures are intended for religious instruction and spiritual guidance. They are not the works of either historians or philosophers.

"The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem. And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom. Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people. Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.

“The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

“Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

“But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

“But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things non-spiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.”

Nathaniel was enlightened, and shocked, by the Master’s pronouncement. He long pondered this talk in the depths of his soul, but he told no man concerning this conference until after Jesus’ ascension; and even then he feared to impart the full story of the Master’s instruction.
Jesus was mistreated and killed by religious people.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Here's something pertinent from the Urantia Book:

"And then went Jesus over to Abila, where Nathaniel and his associates labored. Nathaniel was much bothered by some of Jesus’ pronouncements which seemed to detract from the authority of the recognized Hebrew scriptures. Accordingly, on this night, after the usual period of questions and answers, Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: “Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings—the best as I view it—and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?” When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:

“Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.

“These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.

“Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain. If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men. The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness. The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.

“Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies—men, women, and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God. The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. Have you not noted that the concepts of Yahweh grow in beauty and glory as the prophets make their records from Samuel to Isaiah? And you should remember that the Scriptures are intended for religious instruction and spiritual guidance. They are not the works of either historians or philosophers.

"The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem. And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom. Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people. Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.

“The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

“Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

“But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

“But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things non-spiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.”

Nathaniel was enlightened, and shocked, by the Master’s pronouncement. He long pondered this talk in the depths of his soul, but he told no man concerning this conference until after Jesus’ ascension; and even then he feared to impart the full story of the Master’s instruction.
Why do you consider that pertinent?

I consider this pertinent.
The Urantia Book (sometimes called The Urantia Papers or The Fifth Epochal Revelation) is a spiritual, philosophical, and religious book that originated in Chicago, Illinois, United States sometime between 1924 and 1955. The authorship remains a matter of debate.

Would you like to make a guess, why?
 
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Dimi95

Прaвославие!
@nPeace
I have checked with scripture , Jesus is the firstborn of the dead.

Daniel 12
"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

1290 days -explains the 3 year ministry of Jesus untill his Death

At the end of the last day (1335) , Jesus ascended into heaven.

1335 - 1290 = 42

The Bible records at least eight appearances of the resurrected Jesus to different people at various times and locations over a 40-day period before He ascended into heaven.

The 2 day difference can be justified with "he was raised on the third day"

Hebrews 11:
"These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

It clearly says that none of them received what had been promised to them , so i have seen my mistake.

I am here to win , or learn.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Hebrews 11:
"These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

It clearly says that none of them received what had been promised to them , so i have seen my mistake.
It's always good when we see our mistakes, and admit them. Well done.

I am here to win , or learn.
You can do both.
However, to be a winner, you must first learn.
 

Will Due

Member
Why do you consider that pertinent?

I consider this pertinent.
The Urantia Book (sometimes called The Urantia Papers or The Fifth Epochal Revelation) is a spiritual, philosophical, and religious book that originated in Chicago, Illinois, United States sometime between 1924 and 1955. The authorship remains a matter of debate.

Would you like to make a guess, why?
Because there are a lot of people who would rather debate truth, instead of seeing it for the pertinence that it is:


"And so, while they paused in the shade of the hillside, Jesus continued to teach them regarding the religion of the spirit, in substance saying:

"You have come out from among those of your fellows who choose to remain satisfied with a religion of mind, who crave security and prefer conformity. You have elected to exchange your feelings of authoritative certainty for the assurances of the spirit of adventurous and progressive faith. You have dared to protest against the grueling bondage of institutional religion and to reject the authority of the traditions of record which are now regarded as the word of God. Our Father did indeed speak through Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Amos, and Hosea, but he did not cease to minister words of truth to the world when these prophets of old made an end of their utterances. My Father is no respecter of races or generations in that the word of truth is vouchsafed one age and withheld from another. Commit not the folly of calling that divine which is wholly human, and fail not to discern the words of truth which come not through the traditional oracles of supposed inspiration.

"I have called upon you to be born again, to be born of the spirit. I have called you out of the darkness of authority and the lethargy of tradition into the transcendent light of the realization of the possibility of making for yourselves the greatest discovery possible for the human soul to make—the supernal experience of finding God for yourself, in yourself, and of yourself, and of doing all this as a fact in your own personal experience. And so may you pass from death to life, from the authority of tradition to the experience of knowing God; thus will you pass from darkness to light, from a racial faith inherited to a personal faith achieved by actual experience; and thereby will you progress from a theology of mind handed down by your ancestors to a true religion of spirit which shall be built up in your souls as an eternal endowment.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Because there are a lot of people who would rather debate truth, instead of seeing it for the pertinence that it is:


"And so, while they paused in the shade of the hillside, Jesus continued to teach them regarding the religion of the spirit, in substance saying:

"You have come out from among those of your fellows who choose to remain satisfied with a religion of mind, who crave security and prefer conformity. You have elected to exchange your feelings of authoritative certainty for the assurances of the spirit of adventurous and progressive faith. You have dared to protest against the grueling bondage of institutional religion and to reject the authority of the traditions of record which are now regarded as the word of God. Our Father did indeed speak through Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Amos, and Hosea, but he did not cease to minister words of truth to the world when these prophets of old made an end of their utterances. My Father is no respecter of races or generations in that the word of truth is vouchsafed one age and withheld from another. Commit not the folly of calling that divine which is wholly human, and fail not to discern the words of truth which come not through the traditional oracles of supposed inspiration.

"I have called upon you to be born again, to be born of the spirit. I have called you out of the darkness of authority and the lethargy of tradition into the transcendent light of the realization of the possibility of making for yourselves the greatest discovery possible for the human soul to make—the supernal experience of finding God for yourself, in yourself, and of yourself, and of doing all this as a fact in your own personal experience. And so may you pass from death to life, from the authority of tradition to the experience of knowing God; thus will you pass from darkness to light, from a racial faith inherited to a personal faith achieved by actual experience; and thereby will you progress from a theology of mind handed down by your ancestors to a true religion of spirit which shall be built up in your souls as an eternal endowment.
I think most people are thinkers.
The only ones who are easily taken are those who do not love truth.

Thinking people know that if the Bank gives them money, it's legit.
If John Brown comes along, and gives you money - check it. It's likely counterfeit... and if John Brown tells you someone printed it, but he doesn't have a clue... Look out! It's counterfeit. An illegitimate imitation.
It has some of the same features, as the genuine, but then, other feature give it away as fake.

More than one third of the content of The Urantia Book is devoted to a narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus, and the Judeo-Christian tradition is given an importance exceeding any other. The book's teachings claim to be a clarification and expansion of Christian belief. However, numerous differences are noted between its teachings and commonly accepted Christian doctrines.

Look out! It's a forgery, writen by persons using Satan's guiding hand.
You think any honest hearted person is going to read that,... or not read it and not see it for what it is?

Satan will only get the ones mentioned at 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
By the way, I am not reading any of that, so I hope you aren't preaching those lines, in the hope that some lie will seduce me.
It works on unwary folk, who don't stick with God's word... like Eve.
 

Will Due

Member
I think most people are thinkers.
The only ones who are easily taken are those who do not love truth.

Thinking people know that if the Bank gives them money, it's legit.
If John Brown comes along, and gives you money - check it. It's likely counterfeit... and if John Brown tells you someone printed it, but he doesn't have a clue... Look out! It's counterfeit. An illegitimate imitation.
It has some of the same features, as the genuine, but then, other feature give it away as fake.

More than one third of the content of The Urantia Book is devoted to a narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus, and the Judeo-Christian tradition is given an importance exceeding any other. The book's teachings claim to be a clarification and expansion of Christian belief. However, numerous differences are noted between its teachings and commonly accepted Christian doctrines.

Look out! It's a forgery, writen by persons using Satan's guiding hand.
You think any honest hearted person is going to read that,... or not read it and not see it for what it is?

Satan will only get the ones mentioned at 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
By the way, I am not reading any of that, so I hope you aren't preaching those lines, in the hope that some lie will seduce me.
It works on unwary folk, who don't stick with God's word... like Eve.
They accused Jesus of being in league with Beelzebub.
 
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