If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Truthseeker]

But most importantly, he cannot INTERPRET something that Baha'u'llah never said. What he did was ADD to what Baha'u'llah said, and he had no authority to do that.

How do you know that? There are volumes of Baha'u'llah's Writings not translated. Also God can make anyone infallible if He wants to. God is not that limited. Isn't that logical?

If you want to believe the man-made Baha'i dogma go ahead, just count me out.

That is your belief, and I have mine. I also find this logical in consideration to certain Writings. It is about 2:50 my time, so I won't go into that now.

 

[Brian2]

What that means is that Baha'u'llah will remind us of the teachings of Jesus and what Jesus did for us on the cross.
Baha'u'llah reminded us of the teachings of Jesus all throughout His Writings, whenever He reiterated those teachings.
Baha'u'llah also reminded us of what Jesus did on the cross.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 85-86

John 14:25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

This passage tells us that Jesus said that He would remind those He was speaking to of all that He had said to them.
The link you give to a quote from Baha'u'llah does not say what Jesus said and does not remind us of what Jesus did on the cross.

We have been over this verse many times before.

Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.

How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven now? His disciples are no longer on earth.
If Jesus had been referring to coming back to earth while the disciples were alive it would have been a failed promise.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples.. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again in the future, which I believe it did, in Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

If Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

Jesus clearly tells that that He "will come again" and take those disciples to be with Him, and you deny it.
Is it any wonder that you also deny the other clear passages about the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven to raise and judge the dead. You know that in the gospels Jesus shows us that He is the Son of Man and that He is the one who is going to judge all people and that He is the one who will raise the dead, but you deny that those Son of Man passages are about Jesus.
Even when I pointed to the end of Mark 13 and showed you that the one who left to go on a long journey is going to be the one who returns, you still deny that is the case and that the Son of Man who comes is going to be the one who left, Jesus.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus was not speaking about dying and going to heaven where nobody can see Him. He was talking about this world.
Jesus said He was no more in the world and that we would see Him no more. That means that Jesus is never going to return to this world.

Just as I said, you create contradictions in the gospels with your interpretation of those above passages about Jesus leaving the world. Your interpretation is anti Jesus and anti the truth of of the gospels and pro Baha'u'llah, the false prophet whom Baha'is tell us is the return of the Christ,,,,,,,,,,, even when he did none of the things that the return of Christ is to do according to the Bible. You believe he is the return of Christ when he tells you that the prophecies about the return of Christ in the Bible do not mean what they say and when he does not do what the return of Christ is prophesied to do. He changes the plain meaning of the Bible on those things and you believe him and say that the plain meaning of the Bible is wrong.

 

[Brian2]

Baha'u'llah did what we are told that the Son of Man is going to do. Jesus ain't gonna do those things since Jesus is not coming back to this world.

Baha'u'llah did not raise the dead or judge the earth or bring peace to the earth or set up the Kingdom of God on earth to rule over forever. Baha'u'llah and any other false Christ has to change the meaning of the Bible because it is impossible for them to fulfil what the return of Christ will do.

22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son was God giving authority to Jesus to judge people and it applies to when Jesus lived and during the Dispensation of Jesus. Those verses read in context make that clear. Those verses say nothing about Jesus judging people after they have died.

John 5 NIV
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Really are you serious that Jesus was not speaking about raising the dead and judging them?
And how about all those Son of Man passages where He is judging the dead?
You want that to be Baha'u'llah no doubt but also want God to do all the judging.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ etc

Really, did Baha'u'llah do that. And look the Kingdom has been prepared since the creation of the world and we just have to accept it and enter it. IOW it is not up to us to make the Kingdom on earth politically.
False prophets teach lies.

Who is the Master of the house?
Baha'is don't have to watch because we already know that Christ has returned and who He was.
It was the Christians who should have been watching when Christ returned, but since they had false expectations of what would happen when Christ returned they missed Christ when He returned.

You should be watching as Jesus tells everyone to do, then you might see that the world conditions are being fulfilled for the real return of Jesus.

Baha'u'llah did not claim to be Jesus Christ. He claimed to be the return of the Spirit of Christ in another human being.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

All Baha'u'llah has to do is say that Jesus is the Spirit of God and you believe him, and when he says that he (Baha'u'llah) was also a spirit you believe him. Jesus the Christ was a man, not a spirit. That should be obvious, and Baha'u'llah was a man, not a spirit.

I do not deny the truth in the gospels.
I do not believe that Baha'u'llah takes the place of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and nobody takes the place of that.

Baha'u'llah, by claiming to be the Spirit of Truth, is claiming to be the Holy Spirit who came at Pentecost and has reminded Jesus disciples of what Jesus said to them etc.

I do not deny the OT prophecies that are about Jesus but clearly all the OT prophecies are not about Jesus since they were not fulfilled by Jesus.
Those OT prophecies that were not fulfilled by Jesus were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.

So you say that Jesus did not fulfill all the OT prophecies. That is true, but they will be fulfilled when Jesus returns,,,,,,,,,,,,, you know, all those OT prophecies that Baha'u'llah has not fulfilled. Tell me what Baha'u'llah has fulfilled of any prophecies.

I do not deny who Jesus is but I do deny what Paul said about Jesus was.

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

This is an excerpt from the book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer. This section explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. It is important to note that the views expressed by this author reflect his individual perspective and...

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Udo Schaefer is like you, a Baha'i who tears down the Bible as Baha'u'llah did and then pretends to be glorifying Jesus and the truths in the Bible.

You are wrong about that.
The evidence for Baha'u'llah being who He claimed to be is what He said and did that fulfills the prophecies for the return of Christ.

Many of those prophecies are in this book.

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

ALL Baha'u'llah did was write profusely. He fulfilled nothing but did change the plain meanings of the prophecies to make it look as if he might have fulfilled something.

No, we should believe what the Bible tells us regarding who will be the return of Christ, and when He comes we need to match that up with the person who claimed to be the return of Christ.

There is not one verse in the NT where Jesus says that He is going to return. All we have are the verses that say He is no more in the world and His work is finished here.

The verses that say we will see the Son of man coming in the clouds are not a reference to Jesus returning. I explained that in this thread I posted some time ago.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

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As I have explained, Jesus tells us that He is the Son of Man and this Son of Man is not Baha'u'llah because he did none of the things that the coming Son of Man is going to do. It is as simple as that. You want to keep denying the Bible and holding up the one who wants to change the plain meaning of the Bible, then you say that
we should believe what the Bible tells us regarding who will be the return of Christ, and when He comes we need to match that up with the person who claimed to be the return of Christ.

No, I do not admit that.

You say that it has been worked out that maybe 80% of what is in the gospels is not true, but you want to claim that the gospels have been inspired. Hmmmmm, that sounds typical.

I think I have had enough.

 

[Brian2]

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

And the King of the Jews was crucified for being a King of a heavenly Kingdom which He wanted to bring to earth and into which He invites all humans to enter and honour Him as their Lord and King.

 

[Trailblazer]

I certainly do not agree with the Christian claim that we need a mediator to approach God. I pray to God all the time without Jesus.

I don't know about the Christian claim that Jesus is 'needed' to approach God but I guess most Christians approach God through Jesus.

I do not believe we need a mediator to approach God.
It is a Baha'i belief that we can pray to God directly or through Baha'u'llah. Either one is acceptable.
I usually pray directly to God if it is something specific, but sometimes I cry out for help from God, Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Link]

In the Gospel of John, the Holy Spirit is the Advocate and Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus and which came to the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost (Acts 2) to dwell with them and be in them (John 14:15-17) and remind them of all that Jesus had said to them (John 14:26).
In other parts of the Bible we see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ and is promised in the Old Testament by God to be given and be in Jews as part of the New Covenant which God would make with the Jews and now with anyone who has faith in Jesus.
It is through the Holy Spirit that the Father and the Son come and dwell with Christians and receive the gifts that God wants to give them and to adopt them and transform them to be like Christ.

You guys make it to these ambiguous thing that is not God and God at the same time. To me it's a position held by God's chosen and refers to their authority in the unseen as light. So it's how they are with all believers.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do not think that Baha'u'llah told us to love our enemies. Abdu'l-Baha said that but I do not agree with him.

I was drawn into an argument about Abdu'l-Baha over this, and I responded because that pushes my buttons, but the truth of this is is that Jesus said this and He is a Manifestation of God. I believe that God protects what Jesus taught. As Baha'u'llah said:

How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 89)

Why would God allow His spiritual teachings to be distorted in some way? Word for word, it may be exactly what He said, but the import of the message comes through loud and clear.

I would find it hard to believe also that this a "social" teaching adapted to the times. (Referring to loving your enemies). This looks to be a timeless spiritual teaching.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know that? There are volumes of Baha'u'llah's Writings not translated. Also God can make anyone infallible if He wants to. God is not that limited. Isn't that logical?

Yes, God could have made Abdu'l-Baha infallible but I do not believe God did that. If you want to believe that you can believe it.
I know at least two things that Abdu'l-Baha said that are not accurate so that means he could not have been infallible.

Just as Jesus never claimed to be God, Abdu'l-Baha never claimed to be infallible.
Just as it was Christianity who made Jesus into God it is certain Baha'is that make Abdu'l-Baha infallible.

This claim of his infallibility is unsupported by the Writings just as Jesus is God is unsupported by the Bible.
What I see are Baha'is idolizing Abdu'l-Baha which was not what he ever wanted. He only claimed to be a Servant of Baha.

That is your belief, and I have mine. I also find this logical in consideration to certain Writings. It is about 2:50 my time, so I won't go into that now.

You can make the Writings mean whatever you want to believe.

This emotional attachment that Baha'is have to Abdu'l-Baha is no different from the emotional attachment that Christians have to Jesus, but Jesus was a divine Manifestation of God so that is understandable. Abdu'l-Baha was just a man. You can say he was a Mystery of God but that still does not make him divine.

But people are going to believe what they want to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was drawn into an argument about Abdu'l-Baha over this, and I responded because that pushes my buttons, but the truth of this is is that Jesus said this and He is a Manifestation of God. I believe that God protects what Jesus taught.

Why would God allow His spiritual teachings to be distorted in some way? Word for word, it may be exactly what He said, but the import of the message comes through loud and clear.

Even if Jesus did say that, and I don't know that He did, Baha'u'llah did not say it. Baha'u'llah was not 'loving' towards His enemies.
I do not follow Abdu'l-Baha, I follow Baha'u'llah. Other Bahais can follow Abdu'l-Baha and consider him the Perfect Eexemplar if they want to but I don't.

I would find it hard to believe also that this a "social" teaching adapted to the time's. (Referring to loving your enemies). This looks to be a timeless spiritual teaching.

I do not believe that 'love your enemies' is a timeless spiritual teaching. Just look for it in other scriptures besides the NT.

 

[Trailblazer]

And the King of the Jews was crucified for being a King of a heavenly Kingdom which He wanted to bring to earth

Jesus was a King of a heavenly Kingdom which He wanted to see come to earth (Matthew 6:9-10). That is a Baha'i belief.

"The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 54-57

and into which He invites all humans to enter and honour Him as their Lord and King.

Jesus asked us to pray for God's kingdom to come to earth

Matthew 6
9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Jesus did not say "my kingdom come, my will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Show me verses where Jesus invited all humans to enter and honor Him as their Lord and King in an earthly kingdom.

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'u'llah was not 'loving' towards His enemies.

Yes, He was. He may have condemned their behavior, but he advised the Sultan of Turkey, trying to help him. You can find that in Gleanings. He wrote "Epistle to the Son of the Wolf" to a person who killed and persecuted Baha'is. In the beginning of Epistle, he revealed a special prayer for this man to say so he could be absolved of his sins. In the Aqdas he assured Mirza Yayha that if He turned towards Him now and repented he would be forgiven by God.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 14:25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

This passage tells us that Jesus said that He would remind those He was speaking to of all that He had said to them.
The link you give to a quote from Baha'u'llah does not say what Jesus said and does not remind us of what Jesus did on the cross.

Yes it does.

Jesus clearly tells that that He "will come again" and take those disciples to be with Him, and you deny it.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

It is laughable that you try to make John 14:3 to be about Jesus returning to earth.

If Jesus meant that He would come again during the lifetimes of the disciples then He failed to keep His promise.
But that is not what you believe. You believe that verse means that Jesus is going to return now or in the future, but there would be no way that Jesus could come now or in the future and take the disciples to be with Him, since the disciples are in heaven now. How can Jesus take disciples who are no longer on earth?

Just as I said, you create contradictions in the gospels with your interpretation of those above passages about Jesus leaving the world.

Thee are no contradictions. The verses say that Jesus is leaving the world and never coming back.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

No more means no further, never again.

no more

• nothing further.

"there was no more to be said about it"

• no further.

"you must have some soup, but no more wine"

• exist no longer.

"the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"

• never again.

"mention his name no more to me"

• neither.

"I had no complaints and no more did Tom"

Oxford Languages and Google - English | Oxford Languages

Google’s English dictionary is provided by Oxford Languages. Oxford Languages is the world’s leading dictionary publisher, with over 150 years of experience creating and delivering authoritative dictionaries globally in more than 50 languages.

languages.oup.com

Your interpretation is anti Jesus and anti the truth of of the gospels and pro Baha'u'llah, the false prophet whom Baha'is tell us is the return of the Christ,,,,,,,,,,, even when he did none of the things that the return of Christ is to do according to the Bible.

Baha'u'llah did everything that Jesus said that Christ would do when He returns.

You believe he is the return of Christ when he tells you that the prophecies about the return of Christ in the Bible do not mean what they say and when he does not do what the return of Christ is prophesied to do. He changes the plain meaning of the Bible on those things and you believe him and say that the plain meaning of the Bible is wrong.

Baha'u'llah does not do anything with the Bible, I do.

Unlike you, I can read and see that the plain meaning of the Bible is that Jesus is NEVER coming back to earth.

The plain meaning of the Bible is that Jesus left the world and never coming back.
It is just too bad you don't want to believe what your own Bible says.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah did not raise the dead or judge the earth or bring peace to the earth or set up the Kingdom of God on earth to rule over forever. Baha'u'llah and any other false Christ has to change the meaning of the Bible because it is impossible for them to fulfil what the return of Christ will do.

Baha'u'llah did not raise the dead or judge the earth and rule over earth forever because this is not what the return of Christ was slated to do.

Baha'u'llah did set up the Kingdom of God and peace will come to the earth as the result of His teachings.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Really are you serious that Jesus was not speaking about raising the dead and judging them?

I am dead serious if you will pardon the pun. No, Jesus was not talking about raising dead bodies out of their graves and judging them.
At this point it is just easier to post a Baha'i source and you can do with it what you will.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 219-220

reference.bahai.org

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 220-222

And how about all those Son of Man passages where He is judging the dead?
You want that to be Baha'u'llah no doubt but also want God to do all the judging.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ etc

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

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Baha'ullah was the return of the Son of Man. It cannot be Jesus since Jesus is never going to return to this earth and I demonstrated in my last post.
Baha'u'llah has been separating the sheep from the goats since he came and this will continue during His dispensation.

Really, did Baha'u'llah do that. And look the Kingdom has been prepared since the creation of the world and we just have to accept it and enter it. IOW it is not up to us to make the Kingdom on earth politically.

If the Kingdom was prepared since the creation of the world and we just have to accept it and enter it why did Jesus tell us to pray for it to come?

Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

You should be watching as Jesus tells everyone to do, then you might see that the world conditions are being fulfilled for the real return of Jesus.

Nobody who can read the Bible and understand the plain meaning would be watching for Jesus since Jesus said He was no more in the world.

All Baha'u'llah has to do is say that Jesus is the Spirit of God and you believe him, and when he says that he (Baha'u'llah) was also a spirit you believe him. Jesus the Christ was a man, not a spirit. That should be obvious, and Baha'u'llah was a man, not a spirit.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

The Spirit of God is a title for Jesus just like the Spirit of Truth is a title for Baha'u'llah. It does not mean they were spirits. They were men.

Baha'u'llah, by claiming to be the Spirit of Truth, is claiming to be the Holy Spirit who came at Pentecost and has reminded Jesus disciples of what Jesus said to them etc.

No, Baha'u'llah was not claiming to BE the Holy Spirit, he was claiming to BRING the Holy Spirit of God to humanity.

So you say that Jesus did not fulfill all the OT prophecies. That is true, but they will be fulfilled when Jesus returns,,,,,,,,,,,,, you know, all those OT prophecies that Baha'u'llah has not fulfilled. Tell me what Baha'u'llah has fulfilled of any prophecies.

Give it up for lost. Jesus is not returning to this world. Are you going to call Jesus a liar?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

As I have explained, Jesus tells us that He is the Son of Man and this Son of Man is not Baha'u'llah because he did none of the things that the coming Son of Man is going to do. It is as simple as that.

Baha'u'llah did all of the things that the coming Son of Man was going to do. It is as simple as that.

You want to keep denying the Bible and holding up the one who wants to change the plain meaning of the Bible

You are the one who is trying to change the plain meaning of the Bible because you cannot have Jesus coming back if you face the plain meaning as noted above.

Jesus said He was no more in the world.
No more does not mean coming back.

I think I have had enough.

I have had more than enough.

 

[Brian2]

You guys make it to these ambiguous thing that is not God and God at the same time. To me it's a position held by God's chosen and refers to their authority in the unseen as light. So it's how they are with all believers.

When you are touching the elephant's tail, you are touching the elephant, but you have not got the whole of the elephant in your hand.

 

[Jimmy]

I think Jesus is the only way to come to God, but even if somebody lives their whole life without knowing Jesus, that’s OK too. The only thing that really matters in life is treating people kind. Really. That’s what life is all about ultimately.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't know about the Christian claim that Jesus is 'needed' to approach God but I guess most Christians approach God through Jesus.

Perhaps a Christian might say this better, but the way their thinking goes is this: In the olden days, you had to have a priest offer a sacrifice for you to reconnect with God. In that case, the priest is the mediator between you and God. Since Jesus was the perfect sacrifice we (meaning Christians, not me) no longer have to bring sacrifices for atonement. Jesus is the one and only mediator we (them) need.

They usually point to these verses:
John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father except by me."
1 Timothy 2:5-6 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people."
Hebrews 9:15 "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant."

The big metaphor for this the veil in the temple being torn in two. This veil separated out the Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest could go once a year on the Day of Atonement. Within it is the Ark of the Covenant, and the Shekinah of God hovers over the mercy seat. IOW, only the High Priest could approach God, the High Priest is the mediator between God and man. The metaphor of the veil being torn in two represents that everyone now has direct access to God.

I as a Jew do not accept these sorts of arguments, and believe they misrepesent the teachings of the Tanakh. I'm simply describing what I have heard Christians say.

I do not believe we need a mediator to approach God.
It is a Baha'i belief that we can pray to God directly or through Baha'u'llah. Either one is acceptable.
I usually pray directly to God if it is something specific, but sometimes I cry out for help from God, Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

Nice.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to come to God, and the only mediator between God and man, making Christianity the only true religion. This belief is based upon the following Bible verses.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, but that is what Christians believe. However, that makes no sense because we know that before Jesus walked the earth the Jews came to God by way of Moses, so why would Jesus suddenly become the only way for all time? Why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of Muhammad and Baha'is by way of Baha'u'llah, at a later time in history?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Before Jesus walked the earth, Moses was a mediator between God and men, so why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of yet another mediator, Muhammad, and Baha'is by way of yet another mediator, Baha'u'llah?



This post is about if Jesus isn't the only way to come to God.

If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God that would mean that Christianity is not the only true religion.
In that case, I have two questions:

1) How would that make Christianity any less of a true religion?
2) How would that make Jesus any less of a Savior?

These questions are mainly directed at Christians, although anyone is welcome to answer them.

Thanks, Trailblazer

Allah'u'Abha, my friend!

The Gospel, the Message taught by Jesus is the Only Way to God.
It has always been the Only Way.
This message has been given in different words and forms by different Messengers of God.
Jesus Himself said that his Words conferred eternal life. Or more specifically, paying heed to His Words.
So, it is not the historical character, but the Word, the Message, the Gospel.

 

[Trailblazer]

Allah'u'Abha, my friend!

The Gospel, the Message taught by Jesus is the Only Way to God.
It has always been the Only Way.
This message has been given in different words and forms by different Messengers of God.

Baha'is sure have different viewpoints.

I am not sure what you mean by the Gospel message? There are many messages in the Gospels.
Are you saying that the same Message has always been taught, in Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism?

Jesus Himself said that his Words conferred eternal life. Or more specifically, paying heed to His Words.
So, it is not the historical character, but the Word, the Message, the Gospel.

Why do we need the Words of Jesus when we now have the Words of Baha'u'llah?

Baha'u'llah said that His Revelation not only conferred eternal life, but was necessary for eternal life. What do you make of what He wrote below?

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 83)

“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.....
O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.” (Gleanings, p. 169)