If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Brian2]

That is a belief based solely upon religious tradition. That is not a fact by any means.

True, it is a belief, and it is your belief that it is not a fact.

Those passages are not contradictory.

True, they are not contradictory to each other.
They are contradictory to the Jesus Seminar which give their opinion that the historical Jesus may have said 20% of what the gospels claim.
It is not hard to find quotes from Shogheni etc which contradict the quotes I gave however and which show that they do not really think that the gospels were inspired or that the book of Jesus was preserved.
You follow your Baha'i faith by denying the New Testament and the faith of Christianity.

 

[Brian2]

That sounds so Catholic. Who, other than Catholics, confessed the "immaculacy" of Mary. I think what Shoghi might have meant that Baha'is support the belief that Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus... not that her birth was "immaculate".

The immaculacy of the Virgin Mary sounds like he is saying that Mary was sinless. Maybe he thought that is what the Bible taught.
But his quote almost sounds like he thinks that he is defending Christianity and the gospels by defending those things.
As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended....
Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come", p. 109

His book? What book did Jesus write? I guess he's talking about the NT. But they weren't written for years after the ascension of Jesus, which Baha'is say didn't happen as it was written in Acts.

And should they reply: "The Books that are in the hands of this people, which they call the Gospel and attribute to Jesus, the Son of Mary, have not been revealed by God and proceed not from the Manifestations of His Self", then this would imply a cessation in the abounding grace of Him Who is the Source of all grace. If so, God's testimony to His servants would have remained incomplete and His favour proven imperfect. His mercy would not have shone resplendent, nor would His grace have overshadowed all. For if at the ascension of Jesus His Book had likewise ascended unto heaven, then how could God reprove and chastise the people on the Day of Resurrection, as hath been written by the Imams of the Faith and affirmed by its illustrious divines?
Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 12-13

It looks like he is referring to the gospels which the Christians used in the 19th century.

But they sure make it sound like Baha'is love the Bible and the NT.

Yes there is a lot of professing of love for the Gospels and for Jesus in Baha'i quotes. Equally there is a lot of down playing of the accuracy of Bible and Gospels in other quotes.
And of course, being a Baha'i means that you cannot just accept the inspiration of the Gospels and the truth of Christianity.

 

[Trailblazer]

True, it is a belief, and it is your belief that it is not a fact.

No, it is not my belief that it is not a fact.
It simply is not a fact, by definition of the word fact, since there is no proof that Jesus did and said what the gospels claim.

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:

fact

1. something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.

what is a fact - Google Search

True, they are not contradictory to each other.
They are contradictory to the Jesus Seminar which give their opinion that the historical Jesus may have said 20% of what the gospels claim.
It is not hard to find quotes from Shogheni etc which contradict the quotes I gave however and which show that they do not really think that the gospels were inspired or that the book of Jesus was preserved.

There are plenty of quotes that show that Baha'is believe that the gospels were inspired or that the book of Jesus was preserved.
Do you understand that the words do not have to be the exact words uttered by Jesus in order for that to be the case?

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible

The Bahá'í Library Online: Bahai articles, books, translations, and historical materials

www.bahai-library.com

You follow your Baha'i faith by denying the New Testament and the faith of Christianity.

I do not deny what is true in Christianity, and there is a lot that is true.
What I deny are certain doctrines of Christianity, as noted below.
That is not the same as denying the New Testament. Doctrines are not divinely inspired, they are created by men.

The Basic Tenets of Christian Faith

1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way To Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2. We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God
4. The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5. Resurrection of Jesus Christ
6. The Ascension of Jesus Christ
7. The Doctrine of the Trinity
8. The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9. Baptized With the Holy Spirit at Salvation
10. Renewed – Regenerated By Holy Spirit
11. The Doctrine of Hell
12. The Return of Jesus

The Basic Tenets of Christian Faith - Bible Knowledge

Learn the 12 basic tenets of the Christian faith, along with all of the Scripture verses to back them up.

www.bible-knowledge.com

 

[wellwisher]

Doesn't this whole discussion presume the reality of the judgemental God and subservient man mythology? Do we really need a mediator? Are we really in grave peril and need salvation?

Why did God have to sacrifice Himself to Himself to "atone" for the sins that He, Himself engineered and knowingly tricked man into breaching? Couldn't the author of the whole universe have designed a safe, secure world and well behaved children in the first place?

The universe is a huge place and the earth a tiny part of that. There are about 200 billion galaxies and each galaxies has about 100 billion stars. My guess is God the Father has lots to do. He uses his trusted son Jesus, sort of how the Chairman of the Board of a multinational corporation uses a CEO for one their holdings. Jesus was chosen by the Chairman; God to be his CEO and was given the responsibility and freedom to run the company called Earth, as long as he meets the milestones.

Jesus said nobody has seen the Father except the Son, and whomever the Son wishes to reveal. This statement not only shows how busy God is, but God the Father is also private and only his family can see him and can have an audience, anytime. If God is to revealed, to other religions through their prophets, like Muhammad, the Son and CEO made the arrangement. Jesus set up that meeting since the prophet was a good man. In that sense we all are connected to the Father via the Son, and to the Son's Division Heads who met his Dad.

The way to God has more to do with faith in God. It is the inner person that communes with God through prayer. It is not the outer person connected to any religion like a uniform. The children of the promise are scattered everywhere in all religions.

As far as creating well behave children, that was Adam and Eve before the fall. Where they loss their innocence was knowledge of good and evil or law. Law takes way half the options, thereby messing the natural neutral program, that would have allowed extended Paradise. This is why Jesus came for forgiveness of sins, thereby neutralizing law, as a way back to that natural inner balance.

But too many humans cannot give up law, and many want to add more. Luckily the Supreme Court has contained the Regulatory State and its excessive law making that tends to cause pain and suffering. Who needs a law against gas stoves? Chefs like the even heating of the flames convection. Making a law for or against Abortion created suffering both ways. That suffering is due to human law, not God. Jesus is about loving God and your neighbor; all positive. It is not half positive and half negative like good and evil, then repression, compulsion and punishment.

 

[Trailblazer]

The immaculacy of the Virgin Mary sounds like he is saying that Mary was sinless. Maybe he thought that is what the Bible taught.
But his quote almost sounds like he thinks that he is defending Christianity and the gospels by defending those things.
As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended....
Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come", p. 109

Catholics believe that Mary was sinless but Protestants don't believe that. What does the Bible actually SAY?

And should they reply: "The Books that are in the hands of this people, which they call the Gospel and attribute to Jesus, the Son of Mary, have not been revealed by God and proceed not from the Manifestations of His Self", then this would imply a cessation in the abounding grace of Him Who is the Source of all grace. If so, God's testimony to His servants would have remained incomplete and His favour proven imperfect. His mercy would not have shone resplendent, nor would His grace have overshadowed all. For if at the ascension of Jesus His Book had likewise ascended unto heaven, then how could God reprove and chastise the people on the Day of Resurrection, as hath been written by the Imams of the Faith and affirmed by its illustrious divines?
Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 12-13

It looks like he is referring to the gospels which the Christians used in the 19th century.

No, He is referring to the gospels everyone uses.

Yes there is a lot of professing of love for the Gospels and for Jesus in Baha'i quotes. Equally there is a lot of down playing of the accuracy of Bible and Gospels in other quotes.
And of course, being a Baha'i means that you cannot just accept the inspiration of the Gospels and the truth of Christianity.

Being a Baha'i means that you have to accept the inspiration of the Gospels and the truth of Christianity as a divinely revealed religion, but it does not mean you have to accept all the Christian doctrines which are in no way divine.

 

[Brian2]

Catholics believe that Mary was sinless but Protestants don't believe that. What does the Bible actually SAY?

That all people except Jesus have sinned.
The God was pleased with Mary.

No, He is referring to the gospels everyone uses.

Same thing except that these days scholars have worked out that parts of the gospels probably are not genuine.

Being a Baha'i means that you have to accept the inspiration of the Gospels and the truth of Christianity as a divinely revealed religion, but it does not mean you have to accept all the Christian doctrines which are in no way divine.

Accepting the inspiration of the gospels contradicts believing that 80% of what Jesus said is not what He said.
What does accepting the inspiration of the gospels and the truth of Christianity mean to you?

 

[Brian2]

No, it is not my belief that it is not a fact.
It simply is not a fact, by definition of the word fact, since there is no proof that Jesus did and said what the gospels claim.

True it is not a fact by definition of the word fact, but also you have said that you do not believe Jesus did and said all that the gospels claim, so it is a fact that you do not believe Jesus said and did all that the gospels claim.

There are plenty of quotes that show that Baha'is believe that the gospels were inspired or that the book of Jesus was preserved.
Do you understand that the words do not have to be the exact words uttered by Jesus in order for that to be the case?The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words (9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible

The Bahá'í Library Online: Bahai articles, books, translations, and historical materials

www.bahai-library.com

And when all that is added together, it means that you go to the writings of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'is to tell you what Jesus meant, because you do not believe Christianity as passed down amongst Christians and you in fact do not believe that the gospels as we have them, have been inspired. IOW you believe that the gospels and Christianity have not been preserved.
IOW we need to come to Baha'u'llah to find out what the gospel is and what Jesus meant. We should also come to Baha'u'llah to find out what is the meaning of the prophecies and teachings about the return of Jesus.
And of course this is especially true when it comes to those teachings and prophecies which, on the face of what is written in the gospels, would appear to show that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet and false Christ.

I do not deny what is true in Christianity, and there is a lot that is true.
What I deny are certain doctrines of Christianity, as noted below.
That is not the same as denying the New Testament. Doctrines are not divinely inspired, they are created by men.

The Basic Tenets of Christian Faith

1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way To Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2. We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God
4. The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5. Resurrection of Jesus Christ
6. The Ascension of Jesus Christ
7. The Doctrine of the Trinity
8. The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9. Baptized With the Holy Spirit at Salvation
10. Renewed – Regenerated By Holy Spirit
11. The Doctrine of Hell
12. The Return of Jesus

The Basic Tenets of Christian Faith - Bible Knowledge

Learn the 12 basic tenets of the Christian faith, along with all of the Scripture verses to back them up.

www.bible-knowledge.com

There is no point in arguing individual doctrines with you. It is hard enough to find out from you what the gospel is that you might or might not believe, and which parts of the gospels are accepted or rejected by Baha'is and yourself.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that Jesus was not God in the flesh because God is not flesh. God is spirit.

I believe that Baha'u'llah also offered eternal life.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.

O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 167-169

I believe your logic is flawed because Spirit makes a connection with the flesh of humans.

I believe as a philosopher he does not have the power to provide it.

All of that can be found in the Bible and the Bible would have been available to him.

 

[Muffled]

@Trailblazer Jesus (a) said he was the light of the world so long as he was in this world. After he left earth (whether dead or risen), who was the light of God on earth? Who was the path?


I believe the subtle bringing of Elijah (a) with Moses (a) and talk about John (a) being killed from before, is to say, Elijah (a) is here, but won't be recognized if goes public and will be rejected same way Jesus (a) is rejected, and that disciples who witnessed Elijah (a) is that since Jesus (a) is ascending someone has to be on earth as the path and light. The talk of Yahya (a) (John) was to say Elijah (a) won't be accepted but he is here still.

This is the wisdom of the two places Elyas (a) appears in the Quran.

وَزَكَرِيَّا وَيَحْيَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَإِلْيَاسَ ۖ كُلٌّ مِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ | and Zechariah, John, Jesus and Ilyas—each of them among the righteous— | Al-An'aam : 85

Yahya (a) succeeds Zakariya (a), Isa (a) succeeds Yahya (a), but why mentioned Elyas (a)? This is because Elyas (a) came back and when Isa (a) ascended, it was Elyas (a) who became the guide, witness, and light although hidden from public.

The other place Elyas (a) is mentioned in Surah Saffat in which Isa (a) oddly is not mentioned. There is subtle wisdom in all this.

As for the outward religious leadership, Simon (a) was the one to take that role. But Simon (a) is a disciple, not a proof of God sent by God nor chosen before coming to this world. He was selected by God and Jesus (a) in this world, which is different then the pre-chosen type.

After him Paul (a) took place of leadership, but eventually, the leaders of the church ended up teaching trinity. I don't believe Paul (a) was such from reading his words, but who knows.

I think there is a misunderstanding between Bahai and Shiite belief of the path. Per hadiths and Quran I believe the path is always by a living instance of it. While your Prophet made it more about Nubuwa, the hadiths (and I believe Quran does same) made it more about connecting to the leader of the time and recognizing his spiritual link to all humans and Jinn.

So today, it's Imam Mahdi (a). The Du'as teaching us to pray to be guided by his hands is not only du'as attributed to him, but for example, Imam Reda's (a) du'a: Du`a Allahumma idfa`an waliyyik in occultation -by Imam Reza(as) Duas.org

Bahais see it more like teachings of a (dead) guide is the guidance, while my experience, is teachings become quickly locked in time and irrelevant. You need current guidance in real time. Hadiths are a coping means and a means of Imam Mahdi (a) working through people to guide others, but they are not sufficient. Even Quran which is absolutely protected cannot guide in these times alone.

Mat. 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe your logic is flawed because Spirit makes a connection with the flesh of humans.

I believe your logic is flawed. Just because God's Spirit makes a connection with the flesh of humans that does not mean that God is flesh.
Actually, it means God is Spirit.

 

[Trailblazer]

True it is not a fact by definition of the word fact, but also you have said that you do not believe Jesus did and said all that the gospels claim, so it is a fact that you do not believe Jesus said and did all that the gospels claim.

No, it is not a fact that I do not believe Jesus said and did 'everything' that the gospels claim. It is my personal opinion.

And when all that is added together, it means that you go to the writings of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'is to tell you what Jesus meant, because you do not believe Christianity as passed down amongst Christians and you in fact do not believe that the gospels as we have them, have been inspired. IOW you believe that the gospels and Christianity have not been preserved.

As that letter from the UHJ says, the essential elements of what Jesus intended to convey has been recorded and preserved.
Whether or not 'everything' in the gospels was divinely inspired is a matter of opinion, and Baha'is have different opinions about that.
I take the middle ground between the extremes.

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Bahá'í View of the Bible

From a Bahá'í viewpoint, the Bible is a reliable source of divine guidance and salvation, but is not necessarily historically accurate, nor can t...

bahai-library.com

IOW we need to come to Baha'u'llah to find out what the gospel is and what Jesus meant. We should also come to Baha'u'llah to find out what is the meaning of the prophecies and teachings about the return of Jesus.

No, we do not need to come to Baha'u'llah for that, since Baha'u'llah does not even say what Jesus meant in the gospels.

And of course this is especially true when it comes to those teachings and prophecies which, on the face of what is written in the gospels, would appear to show that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet and false Christ.

Quite the contrary. It is the gospels that show that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, the return of Christ, the Comforter, and the Spirit of truth, since Baha'u'llah did what those prophecies say. It is also the gospels that show that Jesus is never coming back to earth.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ, so He cannot be a false Christ.

Jesus told us how to identify a prophet and whether he was true or false.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits are defined as the pleasant or successful result of work or actions so by these standards Baha'u'llah was a true prophet, since His fruits were good.

There is no point in arguing individual doctrines with you. It is hard enough to find out from you what the gospel is that you might or might not believe, and which parts of the gospels are accepted or rejected by Baha'is and yourself.

Which parts of the gospels are accepted or rejected by me or other Baha'is is hard to say and would need to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

[Trailblazer]

That all people except Jesus have sinned.
The God was pleased with Mary.

Where does the Bible say that?

Same thing except that these days scholars have worked out that parts of the gospels probably are not genuine.

I don't know what you mean by genuine. Do you mean that they are not the actual words spoken by Jesus.

I was looking for what Christians believe about that and I found this:

"My answer will be from my southern Baptist background.

There is no way to verify the accuracy of the words attributed to Jesus, most certainly any words in English cannot possibly be his exact words; since Jesus spoke Aramaic and not English. This the English language of course came in with the Anglo-Saxon takeover of the British Isles, therefore, any translation into English will of necessity be the word in English most closely related to the Aramaic word attributed to Jesus.

Even so the old testament was written in Hebrew, and the New Testament was written in Greek. That was further translated into other languages so the words that we read today cannot possibly be the words Jesus spoke. We are therefore presented with the word most closely associated to the original words of Christ.

It is our belief among Baptist, that the Bible is the inspired word of God. This we also believe; that translations are also the inspired word of God."

How do we know the words accredited to Jesus were the words Jesus actually spoke?

were people making notes of what Jesus said at the time or are the accounts in the N/T just people trying to remember what they were told he said?

christianity.stackexchange.com

Accepting the inspiration of the gospels contradicts believing that 80% of what Jesus said is not what He said.
What does accepting the inspiration of the gospels and the truth of Christianity mean to you?

No, it does not contradict. Read the quote above.

To me, accepting the inspiration of the gospels and the truth of Christianity means that the gospels were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[CG Didymus]

Accepting the inspiration of the gospels contradicts believing that 80% of what Jesus said is not what He said.
What does accepting the inspiration of the gospels and the truth of Christianity mean to you?

So, to a Baha'i the gospels were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit? And what is the Holy Spirit to a Baha'is? I thought they said it was the "bounty" of God or something?

But whatever they believe it is, this Holy Spirit inspired the gospel writers to put down misinformation? Because Baha'is don't take the information in the gospels as being true. Whatever the percentage is, it still means the gospels can't be trusted, and people can accept or reject whatever they want.

Hmmm? Virgin birth? Nope, don't like it. Tempted by Satan? Nope, don't believe in Satan. Jesus died for my sins? Nope, don't believe all that stuff about inherited sin from Adam. Rose from the dead? Nope, sounds like a fairy tale to me. So, what's left of the gospels? Not much, but those few things, I believe are "inspired".

Yeah, like that makes sense.

 

[GoodAttention]

Yeah, like that makes sense.

It the Gospel of Mark never existed it would make sense..

 

[Truthseeker]

So, to a Baha'i the gospels were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit? And what is the Holy Spirit to a Baha'is? I thought they said it was the "bounty" of God or something?

Yes, the Holy Spirit is what makes us "alive" spiritually, it is not a "voice" in your head. One can be influenced by the Holy Spirit, but not accurate about everything on a factual basis, because we are human, and the human tendency to err is mixed in with the spiritual life the Holy Spirit gives us. Those Gospel writers were not perfect. For a Manifestation, they are not like you or me, they existed before they were born, and have no tendency to err, so the Holy Spirit through them is completely reliable. Different Baha'is have different takes on the accuracy of details of what Christ said and the events surrounding Him. Nevertheless, what Christ taught as recorded is a good guide to a Christian living a ethical and spiritual life. What details about the Resurrection for instance as recorded in the Bible are accurate about what happened, or are figurative about what happened depends on how different Baha'is see this. I think if I do not know which are which, in a lot of instances it is best to realize I do not know one way or another. There is no detailed account of everything by any of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, or Shoghi Effendi about this subject so we are free to see this as we see it independently of other Baha'is.

 

[Link]

Mat. 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is what makes us "alive" spiritually, it is not a "voice" in your head.

The would be consistent with the Holy Spirit being the Bounty of God, as Abdu'l-Baha described it, since the Bounty of God would make us feel alive spiritually, and we might even feel inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit.

However, that doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is speaking to us, as was the case with Jesus and Baha'u'llah. I don't believe the Holy Spirit speaks to anyone except Manifestations of God. As such, the disciples of Jesus might have been inspired by the Holy Spirit but it did not speak to them directly as it did to Jesus.

Luke 3: 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104

 

[CG Didymus]

Those Gospel writers were not perfect.

Then why didn't Jesus write down what God wanted his followers to believe and to do?

Instead, we have to rely on four gospels that were chosen by Christian leaders as being the ones that best told the Jesus story. Or did they right from the beginning try and make the claim that those gospels were the exact story? That they were the inerrant, infallible story?

At some point that is what the dominant Christian leader had to say. Plus, if there was anything that wasn't clear, their interpretation became the correct interpretation.

The mess that has created is all because God didn't have Jesus write his own stuff. So now why trust any of it? People can trust all of it. Which is too extreme for most of us to believe.

We can believe none of it. And considering the stories and claims in the gospels of virgin births and a moving star and angels appearing... The Holy Spirit appearing as a dove and God's voice from heaven, then Jesus being tempted by Satan... then casting out demons and bringing two people back to life and all the rest... For me, that's not a bad choice.

Then we have all those beliefs somewhere in between. So, if as some Christians say, that God is not the author of confusion, then maybe God didn't have anything to do with the writing of the gospels.

Nevertheless, what Christ taught as recorded is a good guide to a Christian living a ethical and spiritual life.

I'd disagree. It hasn't been a very good guide. Not many, if any, can live by the Christian moral codes.

But if the stories aren't true, then why live by them? The promise of heaven is the incentive to follow them. And, the threat of hell, is the reason a person better live by them. But those rules don't work and have never worked. Even under the Jewish Law, when people were killed for breaking some of the laws, they didn't keep people from breaking them.

The strong belief in Jesus, and that the Holy Spirit was talking to them and guiding them, but also that the devil was also whispering in their ear, were all part of what a Christian was dealing with when it came to how to behave. They could hear both Satan and the Holy Spirit and felt guilty when they did the wrong thing. But it all depended on believing those stories were true.

And, since the Baha'is say that Satan is not real, then what were they hearing? Their own imagination? Maybe. But to those Christians that believed, it felt real, and they believed it was real. And that's what belief in the gospels and the NT gave them. Take that belief away, and I doubt those people would be trying to obey and follow those rules.

But I'd imagine it's the same with Baha'is. It seems like those that have a stronger belief in Baha'u'llah are going to try harder to obey his laws. Take that away and say that he really wasn't a prophet, and he wasn't a manifestation of God, then why would people care that much about his laws? But... at least Baha'is have Baha'u'llah's own words. What do Christians have? Maybe Jesus said this? Maybe Jesus did that?

 

[Truthseeker]

Then why didn't Jesus write down what God wanted his followers to believe and to do?

I don't really know. But I asked google.

The Bible doesn't provide a clear answer as to why Jesus didn't write down his teachings. However, there are some educated guesses, including:

• Other priorities: Jesus may have had more important things to do than write, such as acting and teaching.
• Time: Writing books can be time-consuming.
• Oral culture: Jesus lived in a primarily oral culture.
• Human weakness: Some say that if Jesus had written a book of the Bible, people might have become obsessed with it or even idolized it.
• Apostles: Jesus may have authorized his apostles to speak on his behalf.
• Firsthand testimony: The apostles and others who learned from them wrote things down as firsthand testimony.

The last 3 look doubtful to me personally. The first three are good guesses. Take the one that is best for you.

 

[Truthseeker]

I'd disagree. It hasn't been a very good guide. Not many, if any, can live by the Christian moral codes.

No, not completely, like the one of loving your enemies. However, they are good ethics to shoot for.