Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, your views. There is no God, Son or judgment in my view.
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If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Nothing new there. Bahais hang on to the word of their messenger as if there is nothing else. Well, Bahaollah may have written those words (some might have been added by Abbas, Shoghi and your Hosue of Justice, like adding Krishna and Buddha to the list), but they too are all without evidence.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Being God the Son, to say Jesus is the only way to God just means God is the way to God.Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to come to God, and the only mediator between God and man, making Christianity the only true religion. This belief is based upon the following Bible verses.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, but that is what Christians believe. However, that makes no sense because we know that before Jesus walked the earth the Jews came to God by way of Moses, so why would Jesus suddenly become the only way for all time? Why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of Muhammad and Baha'is by way of Baha'u'llah, at a later time in history?
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Before Jesus walked the earth, Moses was a mediator between God and men, so why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of yet another mediator, Muhammad, and Baha'is by way of yet another mediator, Baha'u'llah?
This post is about if Jesus isn't the only way to come to God.
If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God that would mean that Christianity is not the only true religion.
In that case, I have two questions:
1) How would that make Christianity any less of a true religion?
2) How would that make Jesus any less of a Savior?
These questions are mainly directed at Christians, although anyone is welcome to answer them.
Thanks, Trailblazer
Brian2
Veteran Member
You are hanging onto one Bible verse because you have nothing else.
There is no reason to think that Jesus ever said that. That is one of the alleged sayings of Jesus that has been determined not to have been have been uttered by Jesus.
Jesus Seminar Phase 1: Sayings of Jesus | Westar Institute
The original Jesus Seminar (Sayings) is Westar’s first and best-known project. What did Jesus really say? The findings of the seminar sparked widespread debate and controversy. Its major book is The Five Gospels.www.westarinstitute.org
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
“Most scholars, if they had worked through the sayings as we had, would tend to agree there is virtually nothing in the fourth Gospel (John) that goes back to Jesus,” said Robert Fortna of Vassar College. Jesus says in John “I am the good shepherd . . . I am the light of the world . . . I am the bread of life,” but that “is mostly the work of the author,” Fortna said. Jesus rarely refers to himself in the other Gospels.
THE REJECTED SAYINGS
The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:
John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Mark 13:25, 30: (A series of apocalyptic sayings) “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory. . . . Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”
Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”
Mark 10:32-34: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.www.latimes.com
What is the Jesus Seminar? | GotQuestions.org
What is the Jesus Seminar? Why does the Jesus Seminar deny that Jesus said and did certain things?
www.gotquestions.org
But you don't want to discredit Jesus or the Bible. Baha'is believe the Bible even when they say that most of it is not true.
You say that I am hanging on to one verse because I have nothing else. You say that about many verses that I hang on to, verses that you deny because you have nothing else to do with those verses if you believe what Baha'u'llah taught.
There is nothing else for you to do than deny what the Bible teaches and you prove that over and over,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, then you go on to say that you believe the Bible but just interpret it differently.
So did Jesus say what is in the gospels or is 80% of it just made up? You seem confused about that.
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Jimmy
King Phenomenon
What makes you think that. Is it the fact that I follow Jesus in the real world but on here I share my true beliefs?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is do not make changes to the Bible. Nobody could make changes to the Bible after it had been canonized.You just don't like how Baha'is interpret the Bible, but that's too bad, because there is nothing you can do about it.
I don't like how Christians interpret the Bible either but I don't whine incessantly about it like you do.
Baha'is do not say that the Bible has been corrupted, because Baha'u'llah warned the Muslims that the Bible has not been corrupted.
“Our purpose in relating these things is to warn you that were they to maintain that those verses wherein the signs referred to in the Gospel are mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject them, and cling instead to other verses and traditions, you should know that their words were utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea “corruption” of the text, in the sense We have referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances ......... Moreover, most of the verses that indicate “corruption” of the text have been revealed with reference to the Jewish people, were ye to explore the isles of Qur’ánic Revelation.”
What Baha'is believe has been corrupted are the interpretations of the Bible upon which Christianity is based.
“Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth."
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But we do not hang onto one Bible verse as if there is nothing else, like the Christians do.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus never said that.
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah or the Baha'i Faith, NOTHING.If you want to discredit the Jesus of the Bible, you have given authority to the right group, the one that believes in their opinions and beliefs about Jesus over what the Bible tells us about Jesus.What is the Jesus Seminar? | GotQuestions.org
What is the Jesus Seminar? Why does the Jesus Seminar deny that Jesus said and did certain things?www.gotquestions.org
But you don't want to discredit Jesus or the Bible. Baha'is believe the Bible even when they say that most of it is not true.
You say that I am hanging on to one verse because I have nothing else. You say that about many verses that I hang on to, verses that you deny because you have nothing else to do with those verses if you believe what Baha'u'llah taught.
Don't look at me. It was not me who determined that most of the NT is not actually the words spoken by Jesus.
Jesus Seminar Fellows also came to consensus on the following:
- Jesus of Nazareth did not refer to himself as the Messiah, nor did he claim to be a divine being who descended to earth from heaven in order to die as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. These are claims that some people in the early church made about Jesus, not claims he made about himself.
- At the heart of Jesus’ teaching and actions was a vision of a life under the reign of God (or, in the empire of God) in which God’s generosity and goodness is regarded as the model and measure of human life; everyone is accepted as a child of God and thus liberated both from the ethnocentric confines of traditional Judaism and from the secularizing servitude and meagerness of their lives under the rule of the empire of Rome.
- Jesus did not hold an apocalyptic view of the reign (or kingdom) of God—that by direct intervention God was about to bring history to an end and bring a new, perfect order of life into being. Rather, in Jesus’ teaching the reign of God is a vision of what life in this world could be, not a vision of life in a future world that would soon be brought into being by a miraculous act of god.
Jesus Seminar Phase 1: Sayings of Jesus | Westar Institute
The original Jesus Seminar (Sayings) is Westar’s first and best-known project. What did Jesus really say? The findings of the seminar sparked widespread debate and controversy. Its major book is The Five Gospels.
www.westarinstitute.org
The Bible does not teach anything. It is just words on a page until it is interpreted and meanings are assigned.
Christianity interpreted the Bible and created what I consider to be the blatantly false doctrines of the church, doctrines based upon what Paul taught, not based upon what Jesus taught.
"This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy….
Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……
The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. “
(Udo Schaefer, Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ )
How Paul changed the course of Christianity
This is an excerpt from the book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer. This section explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. It is important to note that the views expressed by this author reflect his individual perspective and...
www.religiousforums.com
I am not a bit confused about that since I go with the scholars, but even before I read what the scholars determined I never believed it was possible that Jesus said exactly what was attributed to Him simply based upon logic and common sense. I mean the gospel authors did not even know Jesus and even if that had heard through others what he had said it would be impossible for them to memorize all of that and write it down decades later since nobody has that good of a memory.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
From the website:What is the Jesus Seminar? | GotQuestions.org
What is the Jesus Seminar? Why does the Jesus Seminar deny that Jesus said and did certain things?www.gotquestions.org
The "scholars" of the Jesus Seminar do not believe in the deity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of Christ, or the substitutionary atonement death of Christ. Perhaps most significantly, they deny that the Holy Spirit is the author of all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17), having moved the minds and hands of all the writers (2 Peter 1:20-21). Since the Jesus Seminar does not believe these Christian doctrines, they relegate anything that Jesus says in support of them as "black." Essentially, the agenda of the Jesus Seminar is, "I do not believe Jesus is God, so I am going to remove anything that records Jesus saying or teaching that He is God from the gospels." The claim that the purpose of the Jesus Seminar is to "discover the historical Jesus" is false and misleading. The true purpose of the Jesus Seminar is to promote the Jesus that the Jesus Seminar believes in instead of the Jesus of the Bible.
To sum up, The "scholars" of the Jesus Seminar do not believe in the false Christian doctrines. Rather, they believe in the historical Jesus.
There is not one single verse in the entire NT where Jesus claims to be God. That is a false Christian doctrine that came about my misinterpreting what Jesus said. "I and my Father are one" does not mean Jesus is God. It means that God and Jesus are one in spirit and one in purpose... Note the word and - I and my Father means there are two entities.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
There's something wrong with that. Baha'u'llah, they claim, is Kalki and Maitreya, but he never mentions it?
I wonder... are there any Hindu or Buddhist prophecies that have them coming from Persia? And that there is going to be "twin" manifestations, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Should be easy to find out. Who was the co-manifestation with Kalki? Then who was the co-manifestation for Maitreya?
Oh, and since Baha'u'llah is supposedly both Kalki and Maitreya, I wonder if the prophesies about them can be made to coincide?
What am I saying... Of course they can. Because I'm sure Baha'is have already made them coincide.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
TB says you can't do anything about it? We are doing something. We are questioning the Baha'i claims, beliefs, and interpretations. And debating about them.
And for me, I am questioning how they change the story of Abraham from Isaac to Ishmael. And how Baha'u'llah ignores the Bible story of Noah and the Flood for some other version that I assume might be based on something in the Quran.
And I know they'll probably deny it, but it sure seems like Baha'is believe they are the only ones that have interpreted things correctly.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
LOL
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is all you can do, question the claims and beliefs, but if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be you cannot do anything about it.
@Brian2 have been discussing the same things for over 10 years, since we were on other forums before we came to RF.
What is the point of questioning the same things over and over again? What is that going to accomplish?
Discussing what Baha'is believe about the older religions is not how you will determine if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, if that matters to you. I advise you not to spend the rest of your life questioning things that don't really matter at the end of the day.
As @Truthseeker knows only too well, I do not always agree with Abdu'l-Baha, but I wholeheartedly agree with the following quote:
"These days are swiftly passing and this mortal life will remain fruitless and without result. Therefore, while there is yet time and the arrow is in the bow, enter ye the chase and strike ye the game. This game is the good-pleasure of God, and this chase is the merciful Providence; that is, living in accord with the divine instructions."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, Pages 573-574
reference.bahai.org
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, you hang on to something else.But we do not hang onto one Bible verse as if there is nothing else, like the Christians do.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus never said that.
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.
Something opined in a seminar by some people has no connection with what majority of people of that religion believe.
What is the authenticity of the people attending that seminar? Some people attend seminars for free travel or publicity.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Our intuition depends on our background (Sanskrit has the correct word for it - Samskaras, the way we were brought up). It may be faulty/indoctrination.
Belief in God or soul leads to a hundred incorrect presumptions. Better to do away with it and stick to evidence.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, it doesn't, but what the seminar determined is that what the majority of Christians believe is false, and I agree.
Brian2
Veteran Member
You just don't like how Baha'is interpret the Bible, but that's too bad, because there is nothing you can do about it.
I don't like how Christians interpret the Bible either but I don't whine incessantly about it like you do.
Of course Baha'is change the Bible. They do not do it officially obviously but when they say they interpret the Bible, it is plain that they do not mean that they have interpreted the official Bible. You even admit to changing the Bible when you claim that 80% of what Jesus said is not what He said. What you interpret is only 20% of what Jesus said in the Bible. Denying the Bible is not interpreting it, you only interpret what you have changed the Bible to be or say,,,,,,,,,,, you deny the rest.
Then by accepting only 20% of what Jesus said you are denying what Bajha'u'llah said about the Bible not being corrupted.
This non corruption of the Bible is of course later denied by other infallibles in the Baha't faith.
Bible | Bahá’í Quotes
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Hah, you agree to what suits you, otherwise you disagree.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes, you have said that only 20% of the sayings of Jesus were said by Jesus, so you have determined to believe the opinions of the skeptics in the Jesus Seminar. That is not about Baha'i faith but imo does show the spirit of the false prophet Baha'u'llah, to deny the words of the Bible. I see this in all Baha'is I have spoken to except those who refuse to speak about it.
Yah, yah sure.
Acts 1: 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
And what you have assigned to be the meaning of this verse is that the disciples did not see Jesus go into the sky and that it will be someone else who comes and not Jesus because Jesus will not return. And it won't be in the same way that this other person comes.
You certainly interpret that verse to death. And that verse is one of the ways Christians will know if someone is the return of Jesus.
Sucked in by a false prophet imo.
You deny the Bible and say it is corrupted and then claim that you do neither of those. You speak with the same spirit that Baha'u'llah and your teachers speak.
So go on and deny Paul also. Why not, you deny Jesus.
Believe the opinions of more skeptics about the Bible.
You go by the skeptic scholars not THE scholars. You choose whom you believe. You go by the skeptical scholars when you say that none of the writers of the gospels knew Jesus.
You deny what Jesus said to His disciples if you think that they could not remember all of what the gospels say.
John 14:25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.
And of course you deny this passage and say it is speaking about Baha'u'llah even when Jesus said that his disciples would be reminded of what He had said to them. Baha'u'llah could nor remind anyone of what Jesus said to them because Baha'u'llah came in the 19th century.
But I don't know why you would want to say that this verse is about Baha'u'llah anyway, I'm sure it would be one of the verses that the Jesus Seminar reject.
So what are you going to do, say that this verse is not authentic or be inconsistent and say it is authentic and is about Baha'u'llah?
This would apply to all the verses about the Advocate and Spirit of Truth that you want to apply to Baha'u'llah. Are they authentic saying of Jesus which prophesy about Baha'u'llah or have you denied those prophecies about Baha'u'llah by believing the Jesus Seminar?
Brian2
Veteran Member
If these same people decided to write the Baha'u'llah Seminars they would probably eliminate all of what he wrote. These people do not believe in the supernatural and the divine inspiration of what Baha'u'llah wrote all they would accept is what history knows about the life and death of the man Baha'u'llah.