If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Jimmy]

I think that verse means that God assigned Jesus to judge while Jesus was on earth, not as the judge of who gets to heaven.
Jesus told us what we need to do to get to heaven, but God makes the determination of who gets in.

I believe that Jesus was the only way to the Father during the dispensation of Jesus, until Muhammad appeared, and then Muhammad was another way to the Father. Then when the Bab and Baha'u'llah appeared, they were ways to the Father.

Of course, Muslims and Baha'is believe in Jesus as well, as a way to the Father.

Jesus is God and the son of God but the rest are just profits

 

[Muffled]

Begotten by god

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground ....

I believe that is not the same thing. The word formed suggest there was a beginning material to shape into a man. Since Eve was cloned from Adam it is reasonable to believe Adam was cloned also.

 

[Jimmy]

That is not a free-will that I like.
Who is saying that Kim Jong Un? Putin, Xi?
Why allow them to make foolish choices and then put them in hell for eternity?
I would prefer a world in which we do not make foolish choices.

Then it wouldn’t be a world now would it?

 

[Jimmy]

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground ....

I believe that is not the same thing. The word formed suggest there was a beginning material to shape into a man. Since Eve was cloned from Adam it is reasonable to believe Adam was cloned also.

The definition of begotten is to give rise to or bring about. Doesn’t say how to do it.

 

[Balthazzar]

I don't remember Adam being referred to as begotten since he did not have a living mother or father.

I recall him being the first formed from the earth by God.

 

[GoodAttention]

The definition of begotten is to give rise to or bring about. Doesn’t say how to do it.

The Nicene creed established the definition of the word begotten, which was to equate the nature of Jesus with God, hence Son and Father.

If Adam is begotten by God then this is a Christian revision of Genesis to say Adam is, like Jesus, also the Son of God.

 

[Jimmy]

The Nicene creed established the definition of the word begotten, which was to equate the nature of Jesus with God, hence Son and Father.

If Adam is begotten by God then this is a Christian revision of Genesis to say Adam is, like Jesus, also the Son of God.

There’s only one son of god imo.

 

[Sargonski]

There’s only one son of god imo.

Anyone can have an opinion .. Why would you think that 1) There is a God .. and 2) that this God only has one son ?

There are many "sons of God" " Bnei Elohim" if one is a Bible Believer . Many if one is a Hindoo . Many of one is of Islam ... Many if one was from any number of ancient religions or religious texts.

Anyone can have an opinion but, is it informed ?

 

[Jimmy]

Anyone can have an opinion .. Why would you think that 1) There is a God .. and 2) that this God only has one son ?

There are many "sons of God" " Bnei Elohim" if one is a Bible Believer . Many if one is a Hindoo . Many of one is of Islam ... Many if one was from any number of ancient religions or religious texts.

Anyone can have an opinion but, is it informed ?

There’s only one in my opinion. The one who resurrects the dead. He’s not only the son of God but is considered God as well. God in the flesh.

Are many gods in the flesh as well?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is God and the son of God but the rest are just profits

Jesus was the Son of God.
It was Christianity that made Jesus into God.

Jesus was also a Prophet.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

 

[Jimmy]

Jesus was the Son of God.
It was Christianity that made Jesus into God.

Jesus was also a Prophet.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Christianity made Jesus son of God as well

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe they are misinterpreting what Jesus said. The fact is that Mohammed or anyone else coming to God finds Jesus also since He is God in the flesh. You can't get one without the other because it is the same God.

I believe that Jesus was not God in the flesh because God is not flesh. God is spirit.

I believe it is not a matter of what is true but the fact that Christianity is the only religion that offers eternal life.

I believe that Baha'u'llah also offered eternal life.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.

O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 167-169

 

[Trailblazer]

So, just what kind of God do you believe in? You think God can’t perform miracles? I don’t understand you.

If He can harness energy and create the Sun & establish the orbit of the planets around it, I’d say He can perform miracles…and did.

I never said that God cannot perform miracles.
God can perform miracles, but that does not mean that everything recorded in the OT is something that God did.

 

[CG Didymus]

Everyone has to get past the judgement of Jesus before they can get to the Father. So going through Jesus is the only way to the Father.

What Born-Again Christians believe is a long way from what Baha'is believe. Jesus being the only way is only part of it. By saying that Jesus was the "only" way for his dispensation but then there were other ways, doesn't answer the other Christian beliefs that are bypassed by Baha'is.

Starting with Adam and his disobedience, Baha'is start changing things. Christians need Adam to be the reason sin entered the world. Christians need Satan to be real. Christians need the Laws of Moses, but they need them to have been impossible to be followed. Leaving people unable to be good enough to save themselves.

Baha'is have to make all these things false, and thereby, eliminate the need for Jesus to have paid the penalty for sin. Which makes it so he's not the only way. With the Baha'i Faith it is up to a person to believe and follow God's laws. Which makes is it similar to Judaism and Islam.,, a person can "save" themselves by their "works".

But Baha'is do it to the other religions also. They have to make changes to Hinduism and Buddhism. They can't have a religion say that people come back again and again until they reach a perfect state and are released from the need for their soul to get reborn into another body. It's more than just saying that rebirth or reincarnation isn't true, they have to deny several other beliefs that are held by Hindus and Buddhists.

Which belief is the truth? I don't know. I have questions and doubts about all of them. But at least Born-Again Christians don't have to do anything with the other religions, they just make them all wrong. Whereas Baha'is have to make changes to all of them, and once they've reinterpreted them to fit their beliefs, they can then say that all of them are correct.

But, because they have made changes to Christianity, it is not the same Christianity that a Born-Again Christian believes in. And I think they'd be much more honest if they just said that Born-Again Christianity is a false religion.

There's just not enough left that a Baha'i can say is true about Born-Again Christianity... Six-day creation, the flood, inherited sin, Satan and hell, most all of the miracles, especially miracles that involve casting out demons or raising the dead, and the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, and... that Jesus is God and the only way... Oh, and that he is coming back... all those things are denied as being true or interpreted as being "symbolically" and not "literally" true.

 

[sun rise]

How about "Physics?"

That might have been something I would have written when I was an atheist. Now it's more like "in the beginning the laws of physics were created"

 

[sun rise]

There’s only one son of god imo.

I would say it as there is only one eternal Avatar that Christians call the "son of God" others having different names for the One.

 

[Trailblazer]

That seems inconsistent. You say Jesus was the only way to the Father during the dispensation of Jesus, then you say that Muslims and Baha'is believe Jesus is a way to the Father. You should make up your mind if He was or still is. You should also think about Moses and Noah etc and whether they were still ways to the Father when Jesus said that He is the only way.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus never said that He was the only way to the Father for all of time. That is just a Christian interpretation of that verses, since they already believe that Jesus is the only way.

Jesus was the way to the Father during His dispensation.

Moses and Noah were ways to the Father during their dispensations.

Muhammad was a way to the Father during His dispensation.

Now, during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, Baha'u'llah is the way to the Father. It is not that you cannot come to the Father through Jesus, but God would prefer that we all come to the Father by way of His latest Manifestation, which is Baha'u'llah.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”

“Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God….

Magnify His Name, and be thou of the thankful. Convey My greetings to My loved ones, whom God hath singled out for His love, and caused them to achieve their objects. All glory be to God, the Lord of all worlds.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 169-172

 

[CG Didymus]

You think God can’t perform miracles?

In many ways I agree with the Baha'is. By believing everything in the Bible as being literally true, I think it makes Christians look foolish. I know, I know, it looks foolish to those that don't believe. But really... some of those miracles sound nuts.

Where I disagree with Baha'is is when they try to say they were symbolic. Like one Baha'i claimed that the resurrection of Lazarus was that he was "spiritually" dead, but then became "spiritually" alive when he believed in Jesus.

But the story has Lazarus sounding like he was already a believer and that he had clearly died. Then Jesus shows up and Lazarus comes back to life.

Now I have my own ways to explain away such stories of "miracles"... I think they were probably fictional embellishments to the story of Jesus to be a God/man. Of course, I could be wrong. But it makes more sense to me than either the Christian or Baha'i belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is have to make all these things false, and thereby, eliminate the need for Jesus to have paid the penalty for sin. Which makes it so he's not the only way. With the Baha'i Faith it is up to a person to believe and follow God's laws. Which makes is it similar to Judaism and Islam.,, a person can "save" themselves by their "works".

But Baha'is do it to the other religions also. They have to make changes to Hinduism and Buddhism. They can't have a religion say that people come back again and again until they reach a perfect state and are released from the need for their soul to get reborn into another body. It's more than just saying that rebirth or reincarnation isn't true, they have to deny several other beliefs that are held by Hindus and Buddhists.

Baha'is do not do a damn thing, not one thing.
Baha'is simply believe what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote, just as Christians believe what is recorded in the Bible.
Baha'is do not CHANGE anything, we simply interpret scriptures in our own way, just as everyone else does.

 

[Link]

@Trailblazer Jesus (a) said he was the light of the world so long as he was in this world. After he left earth (whether dead or risen), who was the light of God on earth? Who was the path?


I believe the subtle bringing of Elijah (a) with Moses (a) and talk about John (a) being killed from before, is to say, Elijah (a) is here, but won't be recognized if goes public and will be rejected same way Jesus (a) is rejected, and that disciples who witnessed Elijah (a) is that since Jesus (a) is ascending someone has to be on earth as the path and light. The talk of Yahya (a) (John) was to say Elijah (a) won't be accepted but he is here still.

This is the wisdom of the two places Elyas (a) appears in the Quran.

وَزَكَرِيَّا وَيَحْيَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَإِلْيَاسَ ۖ كُلٌّ مِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ | and Zechariah, John, Jesus and Ilyas—each of them among the righteous— | Al-An'aam : 85

Yahya (a) succeeds Zakariya (a), Isa (a) succeeds Yahya (a), but why mentioned Elyas (a)? This is because Elyas (a) came back and when Isa (a) ascended, it was Elyas (a) who became the guide, witness, and light although hidden from public.

The other place Elyas (a) is mentioned in Surah Saffat in which Isa (a) oddly is not mentioned. There is subtle wisdom in all this.

As for the outward religious leadership, Simon (a) was the one to take that role. But Simon (a) is a disciple, not a proof of God sent by God nor chosen before coming to this world. He was selected by God and Jesus (a) in this world, which is different then the pre-chosen type.

After him Paul (a) took place of leadership, but eventually, the leaders of the church ended up teaching trinity. I don't believe Paul (a) was such from reading his words, but who knows.

I think there is a misunderstanding between Bahai and Shiite belief of the path. Per hadiths and Quran I believe the path is always by a living instance of it. While your Prophet made it more about Nubuwa, the hadiths (and I believe Quran does same) made it more about connecting to the leader of the time and recognizing his spiritual link to all humans and Jinn.

So today, it's Imam Mahdi (a). The Du'as teaching us to pray to be guided by his hands is not only du'as attributed to him, but for example, Imam Reda's (a) du'a: Du`a Allahumma idfa`an waliyyik in occultation -by Imam Reza(as) Duas.org

Bahais see it more like teachings of a (dead) guide is the guidance, while my experience, is teachings become quickly locked in time and irrelevant. You need current guidance in real time. Hadiths are a coping means and a means of Imam Mahdi (a) working through people to guide others, but they are not sufficient. Even Quran which is absolutely protected cannot guide in these times alone.