McBell
Admiral Obvious
um...
because without evil we could nt see how good he is?
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If Jesus was a sacrifice...
- Thread starter Faybull
- Start date
because without evil we could nt see how good he is?
That is a false dichotomy. We only think we need evil to understand good because of the way the universe is. Assuming God created the universe, why couldn't an omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent being create a universe without evil? You can't have evil and omnipotence unless you concede that God created evil also. Either he isn't omnipotent or he also created evil intentionally.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
"The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he. They are the ones who have acted corruptly. They are not his children, the defect is their own...." - De 32:3,4
Jehovah did not create evil nor intend it. But with the capacity of free will, which insures we are not robots, a choice had been made by those that purposely acted against their own inherent consciences.
"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, (or, " from the beginning.") and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." - John 8:44
Note that God did not create the lie. The angel that turned himself into the first devil (or "slanderer.") and the first satan (or "resister.") created lying. Satan began to be Satan when he, in effect, murdered us all.
So he(God/Yahweh/Jehovah) is not omnipotent & omniscient?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
The Bible calls him Almighty. But that Power is balanced against his Love, Justice and Wisdom. Just because he can determine the future accurately does not mean he chooses to do so. He values love that is not hard-wired but chosen.
Would you not appreciate someone saying "I want to." and know it was by choice?
Would you not appreciate someone saying "I want to." and know it was by choice?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Idk, perhaps you should ask in the Judaism DIR.
It's circuitous. We are born sick and told to be well. We are made handicapped and then punished because we don't perform as well? Perhaps we shouldn't of been born broken.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
And that is exactly why we needed a ransom - to free us from the slavery of not being able to measure up.
To allow us to be "declared righteous" till such time as we are able to "be righteous" in a perfect sense.
"So the Law became our guardian (or "tutor") leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith." - Galatians 3:24
Question.
If I broke your leg and offered to fix it so long as you praised me for both breaking it and fixing it, would you? Because that's the same thing.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
But if I didn't break it - but you broke it on your own or thru associating with someone that was telling you to do something that I specifically warned you against - and then I fixed it for you?
Analogy does not quite match as we are not Adam but his children. This is more the case of a genetic defect - or an lethal infection - that passes from parent to child. The parent contracted HIV. The child is born with it. The child now has a disease he will not survive without a cure. A cure is provided, as long as the child does not resist the cure.
Analogy does not quite match as we are not Adam but his children. This is more the case of a genetic defect - or an lethal infection - that passes from parent to child. The parent contracted HIV. The child is born with it. The child now has a disease he will not survive without a cure. A cure is provided, as long as the child does not resist the cure.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
If you stop and think about it, good and evil are relative terms. It would pretty much be pointless to even say there was such a thing as good if it could not be contrasted with its opposite, which is evil.
I keep saying this- False dichotomy. An all-powerful creator being would be able to create a world where you do not need to know evil to appreciate good.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
And why do you believe they even needed freewill? Couldn't they have just lived blissfully in Eden forever without ever having to make any hard choices? Unless you believe that something was to be gained by God having given them freewill, it doesn't make much sense to imply that it was either worthwhile or important.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hmmm. I disagree. If you've never known anything but darkness, how do you know that what you know is not light? I don't see it as having anything at all to do with what an all-powerful creator has the ability to do. To me, the existance of opposites serves a very important purpose. If you disagree, there's probably nothing I can say to change your mind.
I do not think you truly grasp what omnipotence is. No limits, no laws but what you decide, and even then the only thing keeping you to those rules is yourself. You change your mind, you just break the rules. No harm in it. You're all-powerful. You can fix anything.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
The parent was not eligible. And time was required to prove that Satan truly was lying about us not being able to be successful independent from God. Time that has neared it's end. Proof that God should not have just started over was found in that other angels after Satan joined him in independence right there before the flood of Noah's day. This issue of God's right to rule and his worthiness needed to be settled once for all time.
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be be free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now." - Romans 8:20-22
Yes, God did allow us to fall into a futile state, but not without a hope. He did not wait till they were out of the Garden to provide it either. (Ge 3:15) That the hope is soon to be realized by means of God's Kingdom is what Jehovah's Witnesses keep preaching.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
If you think it was the wrong choice to give us freewill, why are you Xian?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That's the whole contradiction. It was only "valid" for three days/nights.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
To me, that sounds like the age-old question, "Can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it?" However you answer this question, your answer proves the God is not omnipotent after all. I personally don't see why God would even want to create a world without any evil. I think it would defeat the purpose for which He created the world in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, God's omnipotence is, therefore, not an issue. Since you will obviously disagree, I'm going to let you have the last word.