If Jesus was a sacrifice...

[Nietzsche]

From what I've been taught, it is neither that God "could not" nor "will not" stop it but that he allowed it for a time to settle an issue once for all time...so that in the future there will never be a cause to wonder if God was justified in eliminating those that rebel.

"Distress will not arise a second time." - Nahum 1:9c

If a person were to do that, they would be rightfully locked away in jail for murder and suffering due to negligence.

 

[Kolibri]

If a person were to do that, they would be rightfully locked away in jail for murder and suffering due to negligence.

Is it negligence when God has been working to provide an alternate way to completely "break apart the works of the Devil"? (1 John 3:8)

Even death is not incurable.

"From the power of the Grave (or, "Sheol.") I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave?" - Hosea 13:14

 

[Nietzsche]

Is it negligence when God has been working to provide an alternate way to completely "break apart the works of the Devil"? (1 John 3:8)

Even death is not incurable.

"From the power of the Grave (or, "Sheol.") I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave?" - Hosea 13:14

Yes. Just like it's still arson if the person who started it was the firefighter who put it out.

 

[Faybull]

Is it negligence when God has been working to provide an alternate way to completely "break apart the works of the Devil"? (1 John 3:8)

Even death is not incurable.

"From the power of the Grave (or, "Sheol.") I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave?" - Hosea 13:14

And you feel that translation is correct? Finish the verse.

 

[Kolibri]

Yes. Just like it's still arson if the person who started it was the firefighter who put it out.

And that takes us back to De 32:3,4.

I don't believe God set us up. He gave everything man could want and more. And left one small token that He has authority. Nothing more.

And you feel that translation is correct? Finish the verse.

Yes Faybull the verse has one more line even in the NWT. The point of that whole verse was that God would not spare Ephraim at that time. They would die. But there was the resurrection hope. But the final line was not relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[Nietzsche]

And that takes us back to De 32:3,4.

I don't believe God set us up. He gave everything man could want and more. And left one small token that He has authority. Nothing more.

We're not going to agree here. You see the God of Abraham as having an extremely nuanced, subtle plan that ends in the best way for humanity. I see the God of Abraham as having an extremely over-engineered, Rube-Goldbergian mess that can only be called a 'plan' if you attribute its reason for being as outright maliciousness rather than incompetence.

I do not feel there is a way to bridge this divide. We're both arguing from an emotional standpoint.

 

[gnostic]

Christian thought is that the Temple sacrifices, after "the curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two, from top to bottom" by miraculous means, were no longer being accepted as valid by God. (Mt:27:51).

We only have Matthew's words (or whoever actually wrote this gospel) for what happened in the temple.

For the sake of convenience, let say that Matthew did write this gospel, and the author and apostle are one and the same person.

That being the case, if Matthew was witnessing Jesus' crucifixion (I don't know if he did or not), but if he was there, how could Matthew possibly witness the curtains being torn in the temple. It is not possible for Matthew to be at two places at exactly the same time.

If you take a look at what happen in Herod Antipas' court, at the time when John the Baptist was beheaded.

Did it really happen the way gospels (Mark and Matthew) say it did?
Did Herodias' daughter really did a dance, that Antipas granted her wish of John's head?​

It is quite doubtful that there were eye-witnesses belonging to John's or Jesus' disciples in Antipas' palace, so could either Mark or Matthew possibly know what went on.

According to Antiquities of the Jews, Flavius Josephus wrote of John's execution, but nothing about any wish granted for a dance by Herodias or her daughter. The Josephus' account is more realistic and believable, while the gospels seemed to be an exaggeration for dramatic effect.

Tax-collectors, farmers, fishermen, carpenters, etc. They were the sort of people who gathered around John the Baptist or Jesus, so it is doubtful they had anyone inside palace courts.

 

[Sonofason]

And? Why did he have to create evil to begin with?

Evil is like darkness, it doesn't really exist. You either have light, or you don't. Darkness is not something which exists. It is the absence of something that exists. Evil is not something that exists. Evil is the lack of something that does exist, and that is good.

 

[Sonofason]

That is a false dichotomy. We only think we need evil to understand good because of the way the universe is. Assuming God created the universe, why couldn't an omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent being create a universe without evil? You can't have evil and omnipotence unless you concede that God created evil also. Either he isn't omnipotent or he also created evil intentionally.

God did create a universe without evil. Everything in existence, that God created, is good. If you want to see something evil, you'll have to find it apart from and contrary to any of God's good works.

 

[McBell]

God did create a universe without evil. Everything in existence, that God created, is good. If you want to see something evil, you'll have to find it apart from and contrary to any of God's good works.

I give it a 7.5

Pretty good as mental gymnastics go, but it could be a lot better.

 

[Nietzsche]

Evil is like darkness, it doesn't really exist. You either have light, or you don't. Darkness is not something which exists. It is the absence of something that exists. Evil is not something that exists. Evil is the lack of something that does exist, and that is good.

I don't think you grasp my point. God is omnipotent right? Omniscient as well? Can do all things? Even the impossible?

Then there is no reason he could not craft a universe where evil needs to exist. There is no reason he could not craft a universe where the "lack" of good was still good.

I give it a 7.5

Pretty good as mental gymnastics go, but it could be a lot better.

Being a little generous don't you think? Wait.

checks date

Oh. It's Christmas. Fair enough.

 

[Sonofason]

That seems like a massive waste of power and time. That is also basically saying "God could stop evil, but won't". Who was it that said "If God can stop evil and he wont, then he is evil. If he can't stop evil, why do we call him God?".

I don't believe in evil, so I don't have this problem. God has given to us of Himself the capacity to do good. The good we do we got from God. If we do that which is not good, then what we do is not of God, and is something constructed apart from God. That which is constructed apart from God is evil, or absent of all good. A person who is completely evil, if such a person could possibly exist, is completely void of the influence of God. Without God, there is neither good, nor evil. Because there is God, we have good. Where the good is lacking is where we find evil, the absence of good.

 

[Sonofason]

I don't think you grasp my point. God is omnipotent right? Omniscient as well? Can do all things? Even the impossible?

Then there is no reason he could not craft a universe where evil needs to exist. There is no reason he could not craft a universe where the "lack" of good was still good.

Being a little generous don't you think? Wait.

checks date

Oh. It's Christmas. Fair enough.

I don't know why one would think that being omnipotent, or omniscient enables one to do impossible things. I believe that is a flawed understanding of the meanings of those words. God is not so powerful that he could create an object so heavy that even He can't move it.

Notice the definition of omnipotent - having virtually unlimited authority or influence. The definition doesn't say having unlimited authority. The definition says "virtually" unlimited authority or influence. There are indeed things that God is incapable of doing.
Omnipotent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Nietzsche]

I don't know why one would think that being omnipotent, or omniscient enables one to do impossible things. I believe that is a flawed understanding of the meanings of those words. God is not so powerful that he could create an object so heavy that even He can't move it.

Notice the definition of omnipotent - having virtually unlimited authority or influence. The definition doesn't say having unlimited authority. The definition says "virtually" unlimited authority or influence. There are indeed things that God is incapable of doing.
Omnipotent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Did God create the universe & reality as we know it?

 

[Sonofason]

Did God create the universe & reality as we know it?

First, I think you're going to have prove that the universe and reality is as you know it. And then you're going to have to prove that what you know about the universe and reality is the same as what I know about the universe and reality. And then, I think you're still going to come up short trying to show whether God created the universe and reality as we know it or not.

 

[McBell]

First, I think you're going to have prove that the universe and reality is as you know it. And then you're going to have to prove that what you know about the universe and reality is the same as what I know about the universe and reality. And then, I think you're still going to come up short trying to show whether God created the universe and reality as we know it or not.

Before you can get into what god did or did not do, you will need to get into whether god even exists outside of the human imagination.

 

[Sonofason]

Before you can get into what god did or did not do, you will need to get into whether god even exists outside of the human imagination.

No, I'm pretty sure I don't have to do that any longer. You do.

 

[McBell]

No, I'm pretty sure I don't have to do that any longer. You do.

why should your god get a free pass and reality doesn't?

 

[Nietzsche]

First, I think you're going to have prove that the universe and reality is as you know it. And then you're going to have to prove that what you know about the universe and reality is the same as what I know about the universe and reality. And then, I think you're still going to come up short trying to show whether God created the universe and reality as we know it or not.

You're being pedantic and arguing the semantics of what I said, trying to dodge what I said.

God. The Universe. Did he create?

 

[Sonofason]

why should your god get a free pass and reality doesn't?

I've already determined that God exists. You have not. That is not me giving God a free pass, and it is not me giving myself a free pass. This is me asking for your pass, and you don't have one.