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If Jesus was a sacrifice...
- Thread starter Faybull
- Start date
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Like they already knew good and evil and made a conscious decision. If I was Adam id say to the serpent, "whatcha talking about Willis?"
McBell
Admiral Obvious
If god is all knowing, he set man up to fail.
Interesting choice of words "ransom"....
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
They were told to not eat of the fruit. They knew they weren't supposed to, yet they did. The serpent is the scapegoat here, he just encouraged Eve.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
All death is is the temporary separation of the physical body from the spirit. The spirit does not die. Resurrection is nothing more than the reuniting of the body and the spirit, which gives the body new life. Since Jesus' spirit was never dead, He was capable of resurrecting His own body by having His spirit re-enter it.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I don't recall saying it was the 'right choice'. The narrative indicates our freewill, whether one thinks that's the 'right choice', I guess is up to them. I don't really have much of an opinion on that/
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, excuse me for being so dense, but you just asked me, "If you think it was the wrong choice to give us freewill, why are you Xian?" You're a Christian, too. The fact that you don't have an opinion on the need for freewill makes me wonder why you're a Christian.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Until you realize that god allowed the serpent to encourage eve.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Well, excuse me for being so dense, but you just asked me, "If you think it was the wrong choice to give us freewill, why are you Xian?" You're a Christian, too. The fact that you don't have an opinion on the need for freewill makes me wonder why you're a Christian.
You're getting the choice made by Adam and Eve mixed up with the concept of freewill, it seems. Adam and Eve had freewill regardless of their decision to eat of the fruit. They were told to not eat of it, yet they did. Being told to do something or not do something indicate freewill/
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You could say that, but He did so with a more noble purpose in mind and being able to see beyond the initial "failure."
I see it as a perfect choice of words, though. Where there is a debt incurred (i.e. sin), payment or restitution (i.e. a ransom) is demanded. Being perfect, Christ could pay the price for our sins, thereby allowing us to return to God's presence pure and clean. (Of course, He requires something of us as part of the deal: faith in His ability to redeem us and true repentence for our wrongdoings.) Basically, a debt needed to be paid, and He paid it for us.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Sorry, you lost me. Why do you believe they were even given a choice? What was God's purpose in even giving them the potential to mess up? What do you think His reasoning could have been?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So Adam and Eve already knew beforehand right from wrong?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Jehovah has an immeasurable amount of knowledge, understanding, discernment and wisdom. But having the capacity to know all things in the future, does not mean he chose to do the math. By purposely choosing not to foresee certain things, he has allowed free-choice. What All-Knowing suggests is that God lacks self-control to regulate what is fixed and what is self-determination. Better to say he is All-Wise and has the capacity to be All-Knowing.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I think they knew it was wrong to disobey the command to not eat of the fruit, yes. There is a difference in the knowledge after they ate the fruit, and the freewill to obey or disobey a direct order. They were literally different people, for all intents and purposes, after eating the fruit. I think when we say 'right and wrong', we are not accurately describing the situation after they disobeyed, such as being kicked out of the Garden etc.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You may notice that I "liked" your post, and to a certain extent, I agree with what you said.
My only comment would be to say that it does appear that He appears to have stacked the odds pretty heavilty against Adam and Eve. He placed a very "dangerous" (depending upon your perspective) tree in the Garden and permitted the serpent to manipulate two individuals who could hardly have been expected to not take him up on his offer of godhood. It seems to me that if He had really wanted to make sure they didn't disobey, He would, at the very minimum, forbidden the serpent to temp them. He could have still given them access to the tree. But without that tempting little promise of godhood, they'd have probably stayed away from it. This way, they'd have had freewill and would probably have made the decision to obey Him.
I like that explanation!
Amen! I'd take it a step further, though. He knows what each of us (including Adam and Eve) will do when faced with certain choices, but His knowledge is completely independent of our choices. He doesn't micro-manage our lives, but knows us perfectly.
My only comment would be to say that it does appear that He appears to have stacked the odds pretty heavilty against Adam and Eve. He placed a very "dangerous" (depending upon your perspective) tree in the Garden and permitted the serpent to manipulate two individuals who could hardly have been expected to not take him up on his offer of godhood. It seems to me that if He had really wanted to make sure they didn't disobey, He would, at the very minimum, forbidden the serpent to temp them. He could have still given them access to the tree. But without that tempting little promise of godhood, they'd have probably stayed away from it. This way, they'd have had freewill and would probably have made the decision to obey Him.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
This reminds me of a movie called Minority Report. It might have been a book converted to a movie. I don't remember. Should God had killed Satan before he acted when this angel had no history of rebelliousness? I can see the rest of the angels wondering "Why?" "Am I next?"
James 1:13-15 speaks the truth of it, even in this first satan's case:
"When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed (or "caught as by bait.") by his own desire. then the desire, when it has become fertile, (Lit,. "has conceived.") gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."
Satan could have turned away from the thought and desire and had no issue - but no, he dwelt on it. We, imperfect as we are, have a much harder time of pushing away wrong thoughts and desires.
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gnostic
The Lost One
Temple sacrifices didn't ended with Jesus' death, but some 40 or so years later, when the Romans destroyed the temple in 70 CE.
But it would seem that Jesus' death was a sacrifice, according to church teaching.
That seems like a massive waste of power and time. That is also basically saying "God could stop evil, but won't". Who was it that said "If God can stop evil and he wont, then he is evil. If he can't stop evil, why do we call him God?".
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Christian thought is that the Temple sacrifices, after "the curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two, from top to bottom" by miraculous means, were no longer being accepted as valid by God. (Mt:27:51).
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
From what I've been taught, it is neither that God "could not" nor "will not" stop it but that he allowed it for a time to settle an issue once for all time...so that in the future there will never be a cause to wonder if God was justified in eliminating those that rebel.
"Distress will not arise a second time." - Nahum 1:9c