If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Muffled]

you think logically. if Jesus was God why he never told that he was God. whom did he pray ?
we read: Math4:1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. 2*After he had fasted forty days and forty nights, then he felt hungry. 3*Also, the Tempter came and said to him: “If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.

how can God be led by the spirit if the spirit is his active force? God uses the spirit to accomplish his purposes.
why he did not say: "if you are God,....." did not Satan know whom he addressed? he had other intentions

I believe I do but others seem to be lacking in this respect.

I believe He has said that but not in those exact words.

It does not say that He prayed to anyone. Mt 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go yonder and pray.

The Spirit leads the mind which is physical and not God.

I believe he would never have asked this question without believing that Jesus is God in the flesh. The question is whether God in the flesh will still be God or the flesh will inhibit Him.

 

[look3467]

In other words "Captain" can be a Shepherd, a leader, skipper, a head of, a boss, a commander.

Words used in the bible are not all literal meaning, but have a different meaning in a spiritual sense something else.

A Captain of an airplane has the responsibility of the safety of all lives on board, so in a sense, in an emergency landing, one could say, He/she is the Captain of my life's salvation, be it that the landing was successful.

Jesus is, in the bibles context, the Captain of our salvation, as God, the pilot of our salvation.
All souls on board His plane, in context, all humanity, have, are and will arrive in a safe landing to the other side regardless of how ruff the turbulent ride was.

"As God" God was, is and will be saving humanity unto Himself.

Is that so hard to accept? I mean, the good in it. The negativity of it is mankind's doing not God's.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Ken Brown]

I have twisted nothing. However, you have twisted what he said into saying something about believing in the Ressurection.
You are also twisting 1 Timothy, which not even the Catholic Church considers written by Paul. Such a verse merely says that we carry nothing physical from one life into another. What do you think it means to "bring something" into the world in the first place? You are not one to accuse others of twisting. You did not even answer my question of asking how you even derived your conclusion from the verses you quoted.

In a nut shell, Job could have easily been wanting to be born all over again and escape the shell of that life to a fresh new start. In a nut shell, you are wrong!

Hi Shermana, I was hoping others might weigh in on the issue at hand, but it appears they will not. As I have said, and will repeat, reincarnation is a doctrine of demons, giving hope to even those who are controlled by evil.

Now, I have quoted quite a few verses, which shows conclusively that when one dies, they return to dust, and await the resurrection. And it isn't as you have described, "The final ressurection is for souls who have achieved perfection and can live in the Holy New Jerusalem in perfect compliance with the Law and never sin," as many will be in the final resurrection receiving shame and everlasting contempt:

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This agrees with the words of Yeshua

Joh 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And also agrees what we find written in the Book of Revelation:

Rev 20:12
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Elohim; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 22:11-12
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

You see Shermana, those who believe in reincarnation discount the judgment that is according to their works, and deny the condemnation that results. They feel they can die multiple times, and be reincarnated multiple times and not really come to repentance for LIFE. They do not believe in a SECOND death, as the Scriptures truly indicate, by and through their belief of multiple deaths. They also deny the Resurrection of Messiah, along with the Resurrection of the Saints, which is the FIRST resurrection. They deny that those who are part of the FIRST resurrection will not participate in the SECOND death, and those who are not part of the FIRST resurrection will NOT COME TO LIFE until the 1000 years are ended. All these beliefs by those who profess reincarnation, are the result of demonic influence, and has no basis in the Truth. KB

 

[Shermana]

Hi Shermana, I was hoping others might weigh in on the issue at hand, but it appears they will not. As I have said, and will repeat, reincarnation is a doctrine of demons, giving hope to even those who are controlled by evil.

No, the doctrine of a one-time-only resurection is a doctrine of demons used by the churches to control people and which outright defies scripture itself.

Now, I have quoted quite a few verses, which shows conclusively that when one dies, they return to dust, and await the resurrection. And it isn't as you have described, "The final ressurection is for souls who have achieved perfection and can live in the Holy New Jerusalem in perfect compliance with the Law and never sin," as many will be in the final resurrection receiving shame and everlasting contempt:

You have quoted a few verses out of context and insisting and asserting your own interpretation as if it's matter of fact and ignoring the holes pointed out in them, as well as ignoring the verses that clearly explain reincarnation, and then twisting them into meaning something radically different than their plain-reading.;

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Some to "Age-long" life. It's referring to those of his age, and what they will be reborn into.

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

This agrees with the words of Yeshua

Joh 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What do you suppose is the "ressurection of damnation" in the first place? That hell is a place on Earth now? It's clearly talking about their next life. That "hour" has been coming for 2000 years now. Take your time now, Jesus. It's clearly referring to the dead of that particular age.

And also agrees what we find written in the Book of Revelation:

Rev 20:12
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Elohim; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Again, referring to the dead of that age and the fate they will receive in that age. Revelation's events take place before and during the destruction of Israel from 70-150 A.D.

Rev 22:11-12
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Those verses don't deny it.

You see Shermana, those who believe in reincarnation discount the judgment that is according to their works,

Wrong. Reincarnation is ALL about judgment according to works. Those who deny it are those who insist on the principle of faith alone.

and deny the condemnation that results.

Those on your side deny condemnation by works, and they deny context and grammar and crucial passages that poke a hole in your position.

They feel they can die multiple times, and be reincarnated multiple times and not really come to repentance for LIFE.

What are you talking about? They can be reborn in hellish conditions each time, and they have to go to purgatory to burn in between each time. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

They do not believe in a SECOND death, as the Scriptures truly indicate, by and through their belief of multiple deaths.

The "Second death" is not what you think it means. Many on your side of the fence have interpreted in purely symbolic terms that heavily matches what I say it is.

Revelation 20:14 Commentaries: Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

They also deny the Resurrection of Messiah,

So now we deny Jesus's ascension. Wow, your desperate straw men are EXTREMELY flammable. And desperate.

along with the Resurrection of the Saints, which is the FIRST resurrection. They deny that those who are part of the FIRST resurrection will not participate in the SECOND death, and those who are not part of the FIRST resurrection will NOT COME TO LIFE until the 1000 years are ended. All these beliefs by those who profess reincarnation, are the result

You deny that there are other interpretations to those verses beyond your own, even among your own side. You deny basic context and grammar. You deny the concept of "Age-long" life. You deny the possibility that your own concept is wrong. You deny that it does not say that they only come to life after the 1000 years is wrong. You are wrong.

Wrong.

 

[Prophet]

Hi Shermana, I was hoping others might weigh in on the issue at hand, but it appears they will not. As I have said, and will repeat, reincarnation is a doctrine of demons, giving hope to even those who are controlled by evil.

I wonder at what is so awful about "giving hope to even those who are controlled by evil". What name do you expect to show up when you google "friend of sinners"? I believe that you have unknowingly judged Jesus Christ a demon.

Now, I have quoted quite a few verses, which shows conclusively that when one dies, they return to dust, and await the resurrection. And it isn't as you have described, "The final ressurection is for souls who have achieved perfection and can live in the Holy New Jerusalem in perfect compliance with the Law and never sin," as many will be in the final resurrection receiving shame and everlasting contempt:

If you are reading this Shermana, I wonder if you can understand my earlier frustration with you. Here, KB never even considers the implications of your viewpoints being true and instead opts to just reiterate his viewpoints as truth. If either of you have the ability to conclusively demonstrate anything, you certainly would when your viewpoint is more sensible than your opponent's. Since KB lacks this ability, his goal in debate becomes to obfuscate the argument.

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This agrees with the words of Yeshua

Joh 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And also agrees what we find written in the Book of Revelation:

Rev 20:12
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Elohim; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 22:11-12
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

It is a deadly path to form one's own doctrine from alleged scriptures whose truth remains undetermined by nothing other than its existence in an ancient compilation of books.

You see Shermana, those who believe in reincarnation discount the judgment that is according to their works, and deny the condemnation that results. They feel they can die multiple times, and be reincarnated multiple times and not really come to repentance for LIFE. They do not believe in a SECOND death, as the Scriptures truly indicate, by and through their belief of multiple deaths. They also deny the Resurrection of Messiah, along with the Resurrection of the Saints, which is the FIRST resurrection. They deny that those who are part of the FIRST resurrection will not participate in the SECOND death, and those who are not part of the FIRST resurrection will NOT COME TO LIFE until the 1000 years are ended. All these beliefs by those who profess reincarnation, are the result of demonic influence, and has no basis in the Truth. KB

I understand your opinion that beliefs which give hope to sinners are necessarily the result of demonic influence. The demon that possessed Jesus Christ must've been particularly nefarious when he said, "Let him who has no sin cast the first stone."

Presented with judgement, Jesus pretty much always turned that judgement back around on those who used the appearance of selflessness to hide the selfish intent underneath, outing them as hypocrites. In the case of the adulteress, those people who wanted to stone her thought they were good, but they weren't good at all. Those people who wanted the adulteress dead NEEDED people like her around to look down upon so that they could feel like they were comparatively good. They were using what appears to be a selfless ideal of chastity to support a selfish need for exaltation.

 

[Ken Brown]

Hi Shermana, see my responses below in green:

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
Hi Shermana, I was hoping others might weigh in on the issue at hand, but it appears they will not. As I have said, and will repeat, reincarnation is a doctrine of demons, giving hope to even those who are controlled by evil.

No, the doctrine of a one-time-only resurection is a doctrine of demons used by the churches to control people and which outright defies scripture itself.

Really? Have you not studied what is clearly written in the NT about the resurrection. Why is it that reincarnation is not clearly written about in the NT, in the same fashion as the resurrection? The BELIEF in the RESURRECTION was a central and foundational doctrine for believers, not so with reincarnation, as reincarnation minimizes the necessity of the resurrection.

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
Now, I have quoted quite a few verses, which shows conclusively that when one dies, they return to dust, and await the resurrection. And it isn't as you have described, "The final ressurection is for souls who have achieved perfection and can live in the Holy New Jerusalem in perfect compliance with the Law and never sin," as many will be in the final resurrection receiving shame and everlasting contempt:

You have quoted a few verses out of context and insisting and asserting your own interpretation as if it's matter of fact and ignoring the holes pointed out in them, as well as ignoring the verses that clearly explain reincarnation, and then twisting them into meaning something radically different than their plain-reading.;

I have never heard any explain that there are verses in the Scriptures which "clearly explain reincarnation," you appear to be the first which makes such a bold and erroneous statement. Every proponent of reincarnation that I have read, states that reincarnation is not clearly explained in the Scriptures, but more or less is "understood" by their reasoning and is not clearly indicated, as it is with the resurrection.

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Some to "Age-long" life. It's referring to those of his age, and what they will be reborn into.

Shermana, doesn't "context" count for something?

Dan 12:8-9
(8) And I heard, but I understood not; then said I: 'O my Lord, what shall be the latter end of these things?'
(9) And he said: 'Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:13
(13) But go thou thy way till the end be; and thou shalt rest, and shalt stand up to thy lot, at the end of the days.'

The context is NOT referring to those of "his age," as you suggest, rather it is referring to the "end of the days." Please notice that Daniel is told to "go thou thy way", and REST, to await the time of him rising up (stand up), at the end of the days. Clearly speaking about the resurrection, and not reincarnation.

Quote by Shermana:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
This agrees with the words of Yeshua

Joh 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What do you suppose is the "ressurection of damnation" in the first place? That hell is a place on Earth now? It's clearly talking about their next life. That "hour" has been coming for 2000 years now. Take your time now, Jesus. It's clearly referring to the dead of that particular age.

Please Shermana, use context. Yeshua isn't saying that the dead were going to be coming forth in an "hour," rather that THE hour is coming (future time) where ALL that are in the graves will be resurrected, and not reincarnated. It is not clearly referring to the dead of THAT time frame only, but to everyone.

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
And also agrees what we find written in the Book of Revelation:

Rev 20:12
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Elohim; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Again, referring to the dead of that age and the fate they will receive in that age. Revelation's events take place before and during the destruction of Israel from 70-150 A.D.

So you are of the belief as some were in Paul's day that the "resurrection" is already past, and not something that takes place at His return, and then again when the 1000 years are ended?

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
Rev 22:11-12
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Those verses don't deny it.

Sure they do. Reincarnationists believe that they can be unjust and filthly in one life and then get another chance to make up for their past life's evils. But the problem is, which life does every man get rewarded according to, and what IF a man had a reasonably good life but needed to correct just one little flaw, but regressed into total depravity in a subsequent life...which life is he judged and rewarded by?

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
You see Shermana, those who believe in reincarnation discount the judgment that is according to their works,

Wrong. Reincarnation is ALL about judgment according to works. Those who deny it are those who insist on the principle of faith alone.

Again, which one of your lives are you judged by?

(Continued on next post)

 

[Ken Brown]

[FONT=&quot](Continued from previous post

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
and deny the condemnation that results.

Those on your side deny condemnation by works, and they deny context and grammar and crucial passages that poke a hole in your position.

I do not deny condemnation by works, neither do I deny context and grammar, and crucial passages that pokes holes in YOUR position.

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
They feel they can die multiple times, and be reincarnated multiple times and not really come to repentance for LIFE.

What are you talking about? They can be reborn in hellish conditions each time, and they have to go to purgatory to burn in between each time. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

Look, I think you failed to understand. Read about repentance in Ezek 18. This false belief in reincarnation allows for sinners to remain in their sin, with no urgency for repentance in the LIFE that they are living in right now. Do not the Scriptures say, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand?"
[/FONT]

Quote by Shermana:
Originally Posted by Ken Brown
They do not believe in a SECOND death, as the Scriptures truly indicate, by and through their belief of multiple deaths.

The "Second death" is not what you think it means. Many on your side of the fence have interpreted in purely symbolic terms that heavily matches what I say it is.

Revelation 20:14 Commentaries: Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Please explain to us what the Second Death is, and why the Second Death has no power over the Saints who rise in the First Resurrection (Rev 20:6)?

Quote by Sherman:
[FONT="]Originally Posted by Ken Brown[/FONT]
They also deny the Resurrection of Messiah,

So now we deny Jesus's ascension. Wow, your desperate straw men are EXTREMELY flammable. And desperate.

Shermana, do you not know the difference between Yeshua's resurrection and His ascension? I was not referring to His ascension, rather His resurrection. Why would you make this mistake?

Quote by Shermana:
Originally posted by Ken Brown:

along with the Resurrection of the Saints, which is the FIRST resurrection. They deny that those who are part of the FIRST resurrection will not participate in the SECOND death, and those who are not part of the FIRST resurrection will NOT COME TO LIFE until the 1000 years are ended. All these beliefs by those who profess reincarnation, are the result

You deny that there are other interpretations to those verses beyond your own, even among your own side. You deny basic context and grammar. You deny the concept of "Age-long" life. You deny the possibility that your own concept is wrong. You deny that it does not say that they only come to life after the 1000 years is wrong. You are wrong.

I truly believe that there are correct interpretations to the Scriptures, and I would hope any inconsistencies and errors I have will be corrected by more knowledgeable believers than myself.

Wrong.

Let's hope not.

 

[Ken Brown]

I wonder at what is so awful about "giving hope to even those who are controlled by evil". What name do you expect to show up when you google "friend of sinners"? I believe that you have unknowingly judged Jesus Christ a demon.

If you are reading this Shermana, I wonder if you can understand my earlier frustration with you. Here, KB never even considers the implications of your viewpoints being true and instead opts to just reiterate his viewpoints as truth. If either of you have the ability to conclusively demonstrate anything, you certainly would when your viewpoint is more sensible than your opponent's. Since KB lacks this ability, his goal in debate becomes to obfuscate the argument.

It is a deadly path to form one's own doctrine from alleged scriptures whose truth remains undetermined by nothing other than its existence in an ancient compilation of books.

I understand your opinion that beliefs which give hope to sinners are necessarily the result of demonic influence. The demon that possessed Jesus Christ must've been particularly nefarious when he said, "Let him who has no sin cast the first stone."

Presented with judgement, Jesus pretty much always turned that judgement back around on those who used the appearance of selflessness to hide the selfish intent underneath, outing them as hypocrites. In the case of the adulteress, those people who wanted to stone her thought they were good, but they weren't good at all. Those people who wanted the adulteress dead NEEDED people like her around to look down upon so that they could feel like they were comparatively good. They were using what appears to be a selfless ideal of chastity to support a selfish need for exaltation.

Hi Prophet, nice to make your acquaintance. I hope you would be able to examine the two posts that I made to Shermana and come to realize that I do try to answer his positions. With you, I might want to give some more precise answers if I would get to know you a little better. Who is your teacher? KB

 

[Benoni]

The question should be: If Jesus is not God what is He?
Remember that Satan is the god of the earth; so who is Jesus?

 

[Benoni]

The second death is death killed by death. When Adam died we all died in Adam, Jesus death reverse the curse in Adam and death was killed by his death.

 

[kjw47]

The question should be: If Jesus is not God what is He?
Remember that Satan is the god of the earth; so who is Jesus?

1 thess 4:16--- upon Jesus return to earth--he comes with the voice of the archangel( Michael)--- does Jesus borrow Michaels voice--or is it his own voice?

 

[Shermana]

The question should be: If Jesus is not God what is He?
Remember that Satan is the god of the earth; so who is Jesus?

The Incarnation of God's Wisdom Personified, the First Created Soul, the Highest of the Heavenly Host under God, the heir to the Throne, the Prince of Heaven.

 

[Benoni]

So this is the question all need to answer: If Jesus is not God and Satan is the god of the earth; who is Jesus?

 

[Ken Brown]

So this is the question all need to answer: If Jesus is not God and Satan is the god of the earth; who is Jesus?

Hi Benoni, Yeshua is Yahweh. Yahweh was Elohim, and He emptied Himself to become a man (Phil 2), the man Yeshua. As He gave up His Diety, and more or less DIED to what He was, He was able to be RESTORED to that Diety through His resurrection (John 17:5, 1 Pet 1:21). When He walked on this earth as Yeshua, He was ONLY a man, and not Elohim in the flesh, but what He did have, was a FULL measure of the Spirit (John 3:34). Now He shared that Spirit with those whom were called and chosen by HIm, and they, through that Spirit, would be able to do greater things that what He did (John 14: 12,16). So I hope this answers your question. KB

 

[Shermana]

So this is the question all need to answer: If Jesus is not God and Satan is the god of the earth; who is Jesus?

Jesus is the heir and prime messenger of the god of those who escape from Satan.

 

[Benoni]

Jesus is the heir and prime messenger of the god of those who escape from Satan.

So Satan is a god and Jesus is but a meer messenger???

 

[Benoni]

Hi Benoni, Yeshua is Yahweh. Yahweh was Elohim, and He emptied Himself to become a man (Phil 2), the man Yeshua. As He gave up His Diety, and more or less DIED to what He was, He was able to be RESTORED to that Diety through His resurrection (John 17:5, 1 Pet 1:21). When He walked on this earth as Yeshua, He was ONLY a man, and not Elohim in the flesh, but what He did have, was a FULL measure of the Spirit (John 3:34). Now He shared that Spirit with those whom were called and chosen by HIm, and they, through that Spirit, would be able to do greater things that what He did (John 14: 12,16). So I hope this answers your question. KB

I agree He gave up His Diety. And yes He walked as a man and now He is even more glorious because of His death for all mankind. Jesus is the son of God and He and the Father are one. Not and surely not three persons.

 

[Shermana]

So Satan is a god and Jesus is but a meer messenger???

So Jesus is a god too, a higher god.

 

[Benoni]

So Jesus is a god too, a higher god.

Yes; Him and the Father are one. Jesus is not a soul as you falsely claimed in an earlier post.

 

[Shermana]

Yes Him and the Father are one. Jesus is not a soul as you falsely climed in an earlier post.

No, Jesus is a soul, unlike what you falsely proclaim in the above post. He and the Father are one just like he and the disciples are one.