If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Ken Brown]

I agree He gave up His Diety. And yes He walked as a man and now He is even more glorious because of His death for all mankind. Jesus is the son of God and He and the Father are one. Not and surely not three persons.

Hi Benoni, yes, He is One with the Father, just as WE are One with Him and the Father:

Joh 17:21-23
(21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
(23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

And the Father is Greater than Him:

Joh 10:29
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 14:28
(28) Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The Father is the UNITY of ALL of the Children of Elohim, the WHOLE Family together AS ONE, and this is Greater than Yeshua/Yahweh by Himself. When you see it, it answers many difficult questions. KB

 

[Benoni]

Hi Benoni, yes, He is One with the Father, just as WE are One with Him and the Father:

Joh 17:21-23
(21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
(23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

And the Father is Greater than Him:

Joh 10:29
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 14:28
(28) Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The Father is the UNITY of ALL of the Children of Elohim, the WHOLE Family together AS ONE, and this is Greater than Yeshua/Yahweh by Himself. When you see it, it answers many difficult questions. KB

Amen. But I still not convinced He is just Elohim. But I am sure in time we well understand who He really is.

Tell you what I sure do not agree with Shermana statement:

"The Incarnation of God's Wisdom Personified, the First Created Soul, the Highest of the Heavenly Host under God, the heir to the Throne, the Prince of Heaven."

He is far more then "The Incarnation of God's Wisdom Personified"

No where does it say Jesus is a soul and surely no where does it say" the First Created Soul".

Nor does it say" the Highest of the Heavenly Host under God,"

 

[Shermana]

Do you not believe Angels are souls either?

 

[Benoni]

Do you not believe Angels are souls either?

We are speaking about Jesus. the word angel simply means messenger

 

[Shermana]

We are speaking about Jesus. the word angel simply means messenger

Ah, okay, so what are these beings called "Elohim" that are translated as "Angels" in the Greek then?

 

[Benoni]

The name of God “Elohim” The only name used in the first chapter of Genesis, is GOD, or Elohim.
Elohim is used all though out the Bible the “us” is Elohim
is one of the many names of God; this word is used all though out the Bible.

It interpreted in scripture and Elohim is spelled both “god” and “God”.

Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I understand this does not fit a lot of old wine skins; but there is something here.
men are (elohim) (Ps 82),

Psalm 82
1 God (elohim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim).
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods(elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

 

[Benoni]

Sorry about the bold print I can't seem to change it.

 

[Shermana]

Not quite sure if you're agreeing with me that Elohim is in fact used for Angels or not.

The point is that Angels are called "gods".

 

[Benoni]

Not quite sure if you're agreeing with me that Elohim is in fact used for Angels or not.

The point is that Angels are called "gods".

No I do not see Elohim as angels. How can Elohim be angels if it is the first name of God in Genesis??? I know this is taught in many religious systems but I do not see it, I think it is an assumption because they cannot comprehend we are God’s sons. If men our elohim as Ps 90 and Job 38 shows us then Jesus is far more than we are.

 

[Shermana]

No I do not see Elohim as angels. How can Elohim be angels if it is the first name of God in Genesis??? I know this is taught in many religious systems but I do not see it, I think it is an assumption because they cannot comprehend we are God’s sons. If men our elohim as Ps 90 and Job 38 shows us then Jesus is far more than we are.

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/monotheism/genesis-plurals.html

 

[Benoni]

Sounds like there not sure what to believe just like you. Let me tell you a secret. it is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides us into all truth nor man and his 30,000 religions.

 

[Shermana]

Sounds like there not sure what to believe just like you. Let me tell you a secret. it is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides us into all truth nor man and his 30,000 religions.

What are you talking about? How do you get that from that website?

And of course, how do you determine who is led by the Spirit and who is not? What if I told you that the Spirit leads me, and not you?

 

[Benoni]

What are you talking about? How do you get that from that website?

And of course, how do you determine who is led by the Spirit and who is not? What if I told you that the Spirit leads me, and not you?

It’s called relationship and what I see from your post is all you know is what religious men say and not what God's Spirit is saying and it does not line up to what God is doing.

I asked you to show me where Jesus a soul? Nowhere does it say" the First Created Soul" and you cannot back this claim with God’s Word; instead of God's Spiritual Word you have is some religious dogma and doctrine that leads and guides you?

Now you send me to some religious website which I am sure has some truth but it is just like all the other religious websites from 20,000 different religious systems all trying to figure God out in their religious way and keeping God’s Spirit outside their gate.

That is not lettings God’s Spirit lead and guiding us it is relying on the scholars of man religious system to lead and guide us into all truth.

When are you going to learn that without God’s Spirit all of this religious dogma is not spirit and truth but human will and understanding. So how is God’s Spirit leading and guiding you when you have all these preconceived bias that do not line up with His spiritual Word???

 

[Brickjectivity]

Not quite sure if you're agreeing with me that Elohim is in fact used for Angels or not.

The point is that Angels are called "gods".

I agree that post was unclear. Benoni still hasn't clarified it.

It’s called relationship and what I see from your post is all you know is what religious men say and not what God's Spirit is saying and it does not line up to what God is doing....When are you going to learn...?

That is harsh. Even if I agreed with you which I don't, you're trying to beat the man into a pulp, and its not appropriate.

all of this religious dogma

Agree that sometimes dogma is spurious.

So how is God’s Spirit leading and guiding you when you have all these preconceived bias that do not line up with His spiritual Word???

That is a topic for a different thread. Besides its an accusation merely disguised as a question.

 

[Benoni]

I am a Christian belonging to a Christian Hugh community made up of thousands of individual sects, denominations, systems all pushing God’s Spirit out of the picture and replacing it with manmade dogmas and creeds made from the systems of man and ignoring God’s Word and the Spirit of Truth with in us.

Yes truth is harsh. No I am not trying to beat the man to a pulp. This is a debate and we are debating some deep issues.

I made it very clear that if Elohim is one of the many names of God than why do we lower this name of God to an angel. We are fallen sons of God and that is what Elohim tells us who we are very clearly in Ps 90 and Job 38 which I posted. In the ages to come God sons will rule and reign on his throne until every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I do not believe most Christian even realize this and to call elohim and angel is taken away from the fact how God originally created MAN INM His image and likeness and set us up to fall so we can become true sons not servants
Amen.. Great description. “Agree that sometimes dogma is spurious”.

No this is why there is error when we trust systems and scholars and ignore the Spirit of truth with in us.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am a Christian belonging to a Christian Hugh community made up of thousands of individual sects, denominations, systems all pushing God’s Spirit out of the picture and replacing it with manmade dogmas and creeds made from the systems of man and ignoring God’s Word and the Spirit of Truth with in us.

I haven't heard of Christian Hugh, but I understand the problem of divisions.

Yes truth is harsh. No I am not trying to beat the man to a pulp. This is a debate and we are debating some deep issues.

Debate means you allow ideas to argue through you without questioning the sanity and morality of your adversary. Its difficult when you care deeply about your subject. I will say this for Shermana, they do care.

I made it very clear that if Elohim is one of the many names of God than why do we lower this name of God to an angel. We are fallen sons of God and that is what Elohim tells us who we are very clearly in Ps 90 and Job 38 which I posted. In the ages to come God sons will rule and reign on his throne until every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I do not believe most Christian even realize this and to call elohim and angel is taken away from the fact how God originally created MAN INM His image and likeness and set us up to fall so we can become true sons not servants

Now we are debating. I cannot debate about my own intelligence or my own inspiration, but I could debate a statement that someone has put forward.

No this is why there is error when we trust systems and scholars and ignore the Spirit of truth with in us.

There is error, and divisions do point to some serious problems. That I agree with. The cause of the error I might disagree with.

 

[Benoni]

I haven't heard of Christian Hugh, but I understand the problem of divisions.

Debate means you allow ideas to argue through you without questioning the sanity and morality of your adversary. Its difficult when you care deeply about your subject. I will say this for Shermana, they do care.
Now we are debating. I cannot debate about my own intelligence or my own inspiration, but I could debate a statement that someone has put forward.

There is error, and divisions do point to some serious problems. That I agree with. The cause of the error I might disagree with.

I will address the last statement.
So we should trust one of the 20,000 Chrsitains religions and ignore the Spirit of truth within? Which one of these systems of man is correct?

Where does the Bible say who should lead and guide us into all truth?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I will address the last statement.
So we should trust one of the 20,000 Chrsitains religions and ignore the Spirit of truth within? Which one of these systems of man is correct?

Where does the Bible say who should lead and guide us into all truth?

I was all of my life someone who considered himself a Christian, and I changed my understanding of the gospel several times for the sake of seeking truth to combat the very divisions you speak of. I sought the source of the trouble. I gave up many things for that purpose, to find out what kept Christians from fulfilling the purpose given. More recently I learned that actually I've not been a Christian, mainly because I have disregarded the Law. (Contradictions in Pauline epistles -- not going into it except a Christian is Law-abiding.) I agree you're correct about the divisions which reveal that Christianity today is not at all on the straight & narrow, and I mean that is reflected in Bible studies. I also think that the spirit of truth is above what you or I think or say, according to Jesus and the NT authors, and becoming a Christian involves denying ones own self -- which is the confession of sin required. The spirit of antichrist is when I or you become the standard of truth, becoming idols ourselves or recognizing others as the standard. The humility the Jesus teaches about not judging others has been absent from many Christian decisions, and it was replaced with an argumentative temperament. That is how I see it, and I think the resolution should it ever happen is a return to humility and law.

 

[Benoni]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

Jesus had to be tempted just like what happened to the first Adam. Difference is Jesus overcame

 

[kjw47]

Sounds like there not sure what to believe just like you. Let me tell you a secret. it is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides us into all truth nor man and his 30,000 religions.

Man and his 30,000 religions all claim the HS lead them to truth, just as you claim. Gods word clearly teaches one must be submissive to teachers--teachers of a religion, obviously. One religion, one truth, one faith--its always just been one.