If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Muffled]

I see, you believe in shape shifters and humanoids, but not dragons, that's too much fantasy for you huh?

I believe we don't know if myth is fantasy or not. Shape shifters are in Norse myth.

I believe dragons are myth as well but in none of the myths do dragons talk.

I believe humanoids are historical. The Neanderthals were humanoid but have a very different version of DNA from ours so they couldn't really be called human.

 

[Muffled]

This is just another member of the long list of paradoxes in the bible...

I believe it is not a paradox but simply a lack of understanding of the uses for the word tempted. A person is tempted when there is something he desires. The devil was trying to find something that would tempt Jesus so in that sense he tempted Jesus. So the bottom line was that Jesus did not have any desires that He could not fulfill Himself so even though the devil tempted Him he was not tempted by what the devil had to say.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus incarnates as God for our sake.
So he brings himself down to our level,
to help us by allowing himself to be tempted.

He suffered all the ills of being human to show us that
no amount of suffering need cause one to become cynical or evil.

Also called the 'baptism of fire'

I believe this verse says it:
Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Oeste]

You have got to be kidding! You don't understand who YOU folks are?

Of course I don’t. I can’t read your mind which is why I asked.

I find that the “folk” in “you folk” tends to change with the speaker so that your “you folk” and my “you folk” are rarely the same. Worse, if I ask someone else who “you folk” are, I’ll get a completely different answer.

"Inspiration" is your religious ideas.

My religious ideas are not inspired

LOL! OK!

I got a chuckle out of that too, though the flattery was appreciated.

As I stated earlier, and as you have just shown, you’re going to have a difficult time arguing New Testament writings are uninspired on this forum.

That is interesting - as I have been here for years, - and have had no problem showing error in NT texts

As I stated earlier, and as you have just shown, you’re going to have a difficult time arguing New Testament writings are uninspired on this forum.

Jesus was Jewish, - he taught Tanakh. Later CHRISTIANS are the ones that took Tanakh texts and added to them.

Interesting.... what books and/or verses do you believe were added to the Tanakh by Christians?

Of course they HAD many Gods, - however they then made a ONE God covenant with YHVH.

They still worshipped more Gods than the one God of Christianity.

What would that have to do with anything? They made a ONE God covenant!

It has everything to do with anything.

Of what use is a ONE God covenant if you have two with somebody else? Even the early pagans, for the most part, worshipped one god at a time.

You worship a triple God, and no matter how you put it, - it is multiple Gods.

I know many who don't agree with Trinitarianism, but I'm not aware of any reputable scholar who confuses Trinitarianism with Tritheism. Generally , I'd have to open a Watchtower mag to get that. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and if your opinion says the two are the same there's not much I can do except to state it's incorrect.

 

[Ingledsva]

The accepted answer (by most) is that he had emptied himself of God glory and his power to come down as a man (Phil 2). Thus his prayer of John 17:
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (Don't know why the emphasis came out on the copy/paste)

As one filled with glory, he would not have been tempted. Thus his need to be anointed of the Holy Spirit even as man needs the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

(hope I expressed that in a way to make it understandable.

Except that John 17:5 doesn't actually say that. Jesus makes it clear they are separate.

Joh 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; to glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:5 Should be translated more like the translation below, - which note, - also ties better into 17:1, and what he told them in 16:

John 17:5 And now glorify me, O THOU Father, to thyself , to THY glory which reigned before the kosmos did exist beside Thee.

Joh 17:6 I have declared thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

~;> report us for defeating
your your your arguments and ego
coz you failed to have a very logical and
also you failed to have understandable common sense
conversation (whatta loser you are indeed)...
godbless
unto all always

LOL! Why would I turn you in for "defeating" when you have done no such thing with me, or anyone else here?

Per the RULES, - you are not allowed to make personal attacks against people you don't agree with.

Keep it to a debate on the subject matter!

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Of course I don’t. I can’t read your mind which is why I asked.

I find that the “folk” in “you folk” tends to change with the speaker so that your “you folk” and my “you folk” are rarely the same. Worse, if I ask someone else who “you folk” are, I’ll get a completely different answer.

Obviously in context to the debate, and whom I am speaking to.

If we are discussing a Tanakh verse - "you folks" - wouldn't be the KKK for instance.

Jesus was Jewish, - he taught Tanakh. Later CHRISTIANS are the ones that took Tanakh texts and added to them.

Interesting.... what books and/or verses do you believe were added to the Tanakh by Christians?

Again - in context.

Isaiah - for instance, - has no Jesus - or virgin birth, - but that is what Christians write, and teach it as.

There is no evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh, - but Christians mistranslate, write, and teach there is.

There is no Lucifer in Tanakh - but Christians write it as such, - and teach that a verse which is actually about the fall of Babylon and her King, - is about the fall of the devil - now named Lucifer. Etc.

What would that have to do with anything? They made a ONE God covenant! You worship a triple God, and no matter how you put it, - it is multiple Gods.

It has everything to do with anything.

Of what use is a ONE God covenant if you have two with somebody else? Even the early pagans, for the most part, worshipped one god at a time.

Good grief!!! Keep the answers in context to what was said.

The Jews ORIGINALLY worshipped a God and Goddess, however, they then made a ONE GOD covenant with YHVH. That ONE GOD, is the difference between Jews, and Trinity God Christians. No matter how you put it - Christians have multiple Gods. The NT even has verses with all three separate in the SAME verse at the same time. Also, Jesus prays to his God. Two thrones in heaven, etc.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I can understand why some people can have difficulty seeing it. I also believe that there are places where he talks about it but the problem is when the main issue is overlooked in that when the Word (God) was made flesh, He didn't come to establish that He was God but rather to come as a man, live as a man and ultimately fulfill the promise that was made in Gen 3 where the promise of the seed would defeat Satan. Additionally, as the Word was made flesh, (as Christians understand), He had left His glory as God in Heaven. It is understandable that the parenthetical time that He came as a man can create confusion as to Him being God.

There were, however, various times where He equated Himself as God, equal to God or at least people understood that He was saying that:

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Luke 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Matt 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them,Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him:

Then there is supportive scripture of the same spoken by others:

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Philippians 2:5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges ; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

I'm sure there are more.

Actually we have pointed out the problems with those over and over.

First off these later Christians were mistaken. Other people could forgive sins, - such as anointed kings and priests.

I've already replied to the one about John 17:5. It should be a couple above this post.

*
John 8:57 is a Messiah reference.

John 8:58 Said he Jesus, Amen (so be it, or, it is so) Amen, saying to them, for Abraham to be (gonomai) fulfilled, I am.

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

To Abraham - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The Messiah comes from his line. Abraham -> Isaac -> Jacob -> Levi -> Kohath -> Amram -> Moses.

Genesis 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people"

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(MOSES) Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

(YHVH) Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

(Jesus) Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

*
Mat 12:8 actually says - The lord/master THUS is ... That thus refers to the preceding verses about Priests including King David who did such on the Sabbath. Jesus as the Anointed Messiah would be a special priest. It does NOT mean he is God.

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mat 12:8 The lord/master THUS, of the Sabbath, is also the son of man.

*
"Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 1:23 is later Christians misinterpreting a text about Isaiah's son Emmanuel. There is no "virgin birth" in the story.

They were in a war and afraid of the overwhelming army on the other side. God says he will give THEM - Isaiah and Ahaz a sign. Emmanuel means God is with us = on our side, in the war. A sign for them personally - can't be a messiah born 700 years later.

*
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

However in the Greek - it does NOT say Jesus is the Logos, - or that the Logos is even a person.

As I said, - none of these verses which are always brought up - actually say Jesus is God.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

???
your statement "lord of me and god of me".


Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” NIV
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. JUBILEE BIBLE
T'oma answered him, "My Lord and my God!" HEBREW NAMES VERSION
Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! AMPLIFIED VERSION
T’oma answered him, “My Lord and my God!” COMPLETE JEWISH VERSION

Savage... I don't know what version you are reading... but none of the dozens of versions plus the Spanish version say what you have just posted.

Unless it is a language (like unto Spanish) where things are said backwards.

Also, I believe I said in another post that a Jew would never call a simple man "my God" or "God of me".

It does say it that way, but what is more interesting is that theos is also JUDGE, and that fits the story.

Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my JUDGE.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus JUDGED him - making it plain with that last sentence, - telling him he only believed when he saw, whereas the people who have not seen and believe - are the ones who are blessed.

*

 

[ukok102nak]

LOL! Why would I turn you in for "defeating" when you have done no such thing with me, or anyone else here?

Per the RULES, - you are not allowed to make personal attacks against people you don't agree with.

Keep it to a debate on the subject matter!

*

~;> just for clarification
we debate so that we could exchange some certain ideas
and
at the same time
to learn somethin that can be useful
so that we may adapt it unto
what is good is good and
cannot lie

for in our own personal opinion
as human being we are also a loser
if we dont keep
those winning sign
yeah the sign of being a humble servant
if we may say so

and
to make it fair
you can also say the same things
that we've told you before
like whatta loser you are
and we will humbly accepted it
for its no big deal unto us and
no harm done from the very start of this debate
coz it was just like an expression
which
is not really meant to insult
anyone here
no more no less

by the way
thanks for the information
and
could you tell us the name of the site
where
the babylonian legends
and
the abrahamic faith
is the main topic
again
thank you very much in advance


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Kenny]

Except that John 17:5 doesn't actually say that. Jesus makes it clear they are separate.

Joh 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; to glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:5 Should be translated more like the translation below, - which note, - also ties better into 17:1, and what he told them in 16:

John 17:5 And now glorify me, O THOU Father, to thyself , to THY glory which reigned before the kosmos did exist beside Thee.

Joh 17:6 I have declared thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

*

What version are you reading to come to that conclusion?

 

[Kenny]

Actually we have pointed out the problems with those over and over.

First off these later Christians were mistaken. Other people could forgive sins, - such as anointed kings and priests.

Not according to Jewish scriptures. Could you please refer where it says that?


[/QUOTE]
John 8:57 is a Messiah reference.

John 8:58 Said he Jesus, Amen (so be it, or, it is so) Amen, saying to them, for Abraham to be (gonomai) fulfilled, I am.
[/QUOTE]
I disagree.

I AM was a God reference as WELL as a Messianic reference. Thus David spoke of Him that was to come after as My Lord.

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

To Abraham - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The Messiah comes from his line. Abraham -> Isaac -> Jacob -> Levi -> Kohath -> Amram -> Moses.

Genesis 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people"

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(MOSES) Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

(YHVH) Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

(Jesus) Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I have no argument with the Messianic references of these verses.

Mat 12:8 actually says - The lord/master THUS is ... That thus refers to the preceding verses about Priests including King David who did such on the Sabbath. Jesus as the Anointed Messiah would be a special priest. It does NOT mean he is God.


Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mat 12:8 The lord/master THUS, of the Sabbath, is also the son of man.

Not taking away from some points... but "Greater that this Temple is here" and "Lord of the Sabbath" - are both God designations.

"Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 1:23 is later Christians misinterpreting a text about Isaiah's son Emmanuel. There is no "virgin birth" in the story.

No. Its interesting how "Emmanuel, God with us" has been hammered, twisted and conformed to what other people want it to say.... yet.... it is so simply clear "God with us"

And, yes, there is a virgin in the story.

They were in a war and afraid of the overwhelming army on the other side. God says he will give THEM - Isaiah and Ahaz a sign. Emmanuel means God is with us = on our side, in the war. A sign for them personally - can't be a messiah born 700 years later.

Are you aware that there are many times two meanings of the same verse? One natural and current and yet prophetically speaking of the future?

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

However in the Greek - it does NOT say Jesus is the Logos, - or that the Logos is even a person.

I disagree... for the "logos" was made flesh and was given a name (vs 14). In my neck of the woods, a flesh body is a person. What is it in your neck of the woods?

 

[Kenny]

It does say it that way, but what is more interesting is that theos is also JUDGE, and that fits the story.

*

I would disagree for various reasons...

You don't worship judges
You don't follow judges
Your don't preach judges

Thomas worshipped Jesus, followed Jesus and preached Jesus.

However, it is in your rights to paint the picture as you would like to.

 

[Oeste]

Jesus was Jewish, - he taught Tanakh. Later CHRISTIANS are the ones that took Tanakh texts and added to them.

Interesting.... what books and/or verses do you believe were added to the Tanakh by Christians?

Again - in context.

Isaiah - for instance, - has no Jesus - or virgin birth, - but that is what Christians write, and teach it as.

There is no evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh, - but Christians mistranslate, write, and teach there is.

There is no Lucifer in Tanakh - but Christians write it as such, - and teach that a verse which is actually about the fall of Babylon and her King, - is about the fall of the devil - now named Lucifer. Etc.

You are referring to an interpretation of scripture, not an addition to scripture. Of course, there are going to be different interpretations of Christianity and Judaism, but I’m not seeing where Christianity “…took Tanakh texts and added to them”.

It has everything to do with anything.

Of what use is a ONE God covenant if you have two with somebody else? Even the early pagans, for the most part, worshiped one god at a time.

Good grief!!! Keep the answers in context to what was said.

The Jews ORIGINALLY worshipped a God and Goddess, however, they then made a ONE GOD covenant with YHVH. That ONE GOD, is the difference between Jews, and Trinity God Christians. No matter how you put it - Christians have multiple Gods. The NT even has verses with all three separate in the SAME verse at the same time. Also, Jesus prays to his God. Two thrones in heaven, etc.

No matter how you put it, traditional Christianity has always had ONE God, not multiple, and I’m unable to find reputable sources claiming otherwise

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You are referring to an interpretation of scripture, not an addition to scripture. Of course, there are going to be different interpretations of Christianity and Judaism, but I’m not seeing where Christianity “…took Tanakh texts and added to them”.

IIRC, it is the NT that says the devil tempted Eve or lied to her. Yet, Satan isn't even IN that story. Thus, we have AN ADDITION, no?

 

[Kenny]

IIRC, it is the NT that says the devil tempted Eve or lied to her. Yet, Satan isn't even IN that story. Thus, we have AN ADDITION, no?

Not in my view:

Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Different names but same entity.

 

[Muffled]

What version are you reading to come to that conclusion?

I believe it is the heathen Alaskan version.

 

[Kenny]

I believe it is the heathen Alaskan version.

LOL - and all the power to ya

 

[Muffled]

IIRC, it is the NT that says the devil tempted Eve or lied to her. Yet, Satan isn't even IN that story. Thus, we have AN ADDITION, no?

I believe it is an interpretation based on the fact that the serpent did an evil thing. So we could call Hitler a devil also for doing evil things. That does not make it The Devil although we have a tendency to blame him for anything evil.

 

[Muffled]

Not in my view:

Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Different names but same entity.

I believe that is a stretch but possibly containing an element of truth. I believe Hel was the serpent in the Garden of Eden and that his/her alien race was a race of lizard people who war against the sun people.