Wookiemonster
The*****isBack
Wow...did you really just agree with me in that during this life I can do anything I want to and still be saved just by asking?
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If Paul's books are wrong than so are
- Thread starter Just_me_Mike
- Start date
Wow...did you really just agree with me in that during this life I can do anything I want to and still be saved just by asking?
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
All can intellectualize the goal of becoming better. But if one believes in God it belittles what God's power is all about if we can become what he wants without him being the force behind it.
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
I believe you and I believe in the same God. We are very similar. We simply see Him from different perspectives and vantage points. This is most likely due to the different nature of our experiences.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Are you really interested in talking with me?
Read Genesis 22 very closely.
Abraham was about to sacrifice his only son, that God waited so long to give him, and now God was taking it away.
Abraham had to have an AMAZING amount of faith that God was right in what he was asking him to do.
If you are looking for just the word faith to say "see I told you so", I don't have time for that. There are SO MANY examples of actions done by pure faith throughout the OT I could post for hours on the subject.
I have tried to correspond with everyone that has posted in this thread, I only hope each one actually considers what I am saying, as I do what everyone else is saying.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
No not quite.
In my opinion your approach to getting right with God is not that different than most Christians, in that everyone wants to take some action so they can "know" they are right with God.
God has other ideas about such thinking.
I never said we can do anything and be saved. I said that anything we do to get saved will not guarentee us salvation at all. Especially if we believe we can do A, b, c and then be OK with God.
I did however, say that all we can do is pray for forgiveness, and if he forgives us we know it in our heart, and naturally we will want to do more things to the glory of God, like not lust, covet, etc...
The difference is after one is saved, it is of a pure heart, and not of lip service.
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
Faith? Abraham does not have faith. He has strict and pure trust. Look at all the many miraculous events that led up to his sacrifice of Isaac. I mean, the very fact that he had Isaac was a miracle in itself. Not to mention that God Himself spoke to Abraham.
There isn't one single instance of faith in the OT where a person did something without first having God do a bunch of other miraculous things for them. The only example you might have is when Moshe went to take the Israelites out of Egypt because before the burning bush it is reasonable to assume that Moshe did not have any other miraculous experiences.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Well, I think if you really consider your position about the "same God" you might see it differently.
Throughout your scriptures you will often see the people of Israel worshipping other gods, God points this out often. Is it not fair to say these people of Israel may have thought "ah heck, it is the same God just different way to view him".
Do you think God saw it that way?
I realize this is a serious situation, because if you get it wrong or if I get it wrong it is the difference between life and death.
Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;" and he was called the friend of Elohim.
Jas 2:24 You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Jas 2:21 Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;" and he was called the friend of Elohim.
Jas 2:24 You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
That is a fundamental difference between you and I. According to your idea then, what do today's people follow from? You have no miracles, you have no instances. You only have faith that all those words are true.
So now your God requires you to follow by faith and tradition and sripture, but back then they had it easy?
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
I assume this is directed at me.
It is not ironic that you post all verses from the book of James.
I am sure you feel that you have really got me in a corner now. The problem is the book of James merely teaches what happens AFTER salvation happens.
When we become saved, we are born again. We have a new soul inside of us. God dwells inside of us.
As a result, we will begin to do the works of God, our life changes. This is the work James is referring to.
Abraham would NEVER have done anywork if he did not have faith that God was in control and doing the right thing.
God is the force behind us becoming better people.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
A fundamental difference is:
Paul taught: God loves us first, by which our heart is miraculosly changed. We then do what he says.
Where Judaism says: by what I do, God will Love me.
Paul taught: God loves us first, by which our heart is miraculosly changed. We then do what he says.
Where Judaism says: by what I do, God will Love me.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Amen to that.
That's the point.
We have to want to become better people, and we strive to become better people.
And we are not God; we are but parts. And while we have not realized God, we must do what we can, according to whichever Path we've chosen, to realize this.
And remember: "I gained nothing from supreme enlightenment. It is for that very reason that it is called supreme enlightenment."
-The Buddha
　
Corner? no. Just trying to see where you are coming from and seeing all the differences in our understandings. please don't be so paranoid. Its not a good virtue.
　
　
But see I read Moshe had the spirit as well along with others that sinned afterwards. Man still has freedom of choice even after we accept the truth. I see no where that man saved prior to judgment. What I do see is that he must prevail to the end in doing his fathers commands that he might be saved.
　
(Joh 3:17 KJV) For Elohim sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
　
(Joh 5:34 KJV) But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
　
(Rom 10:1 KJV) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to Elohim for Yisrael is, that they might be saved.
　
(1Th 2:16 KJV) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
　
(2Th 2:10 KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
　
Also I read that we are all appointed to die as Adam sinned so it is the curse on all of man but then we are judged.
　
Heb 9:27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
Heb 9:28 so the Anointed also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.
　
If one is waiting for the Moshiach to return for salvation then how are they already saved?
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
God is One. The Israelites worship of other gods would be the worship of idols. However, you and I both worship the One God of Israel (At least, we both claim to).
I have trust. I have the Jews. The Jews are my miracle. They exist, they have carried Torah faithfully as God's people. Though many of them have fallen, there has always been that holy remnant which stayed true to the will of God. For this reason, I believe in the Torah that they profess. I know there is a God and I believe that the Jews have sufficient enough proof in their mere existence to warrant appropriate belief in the Torah.
You, once again, misunderstand Judaism. Judaism teaches that God loves us, after all this is why He created us. God loves us and He desires that we re-iterate that love. The way this is accomplished is through service of God.
Judaism teaches: God loves me and shows it by sustaining my existence, I love God and I want to show Him that I love Him and therefore I will do what He asks me to.
Someone who knows nothing about Judaism said:
Someone who gets it said:
...Because, after all, the Law was a gift from G-d, to give us a good and happy life. Not a burden or curse as some see it, but a path of life.
'... it's ways are ways of pleasantness and all it's paths are peace...'
Someone who gets it said:
...Because, after all, the Law was a gift from G-d, to give us a good and happy life. Not a burden or curse as some see it, but a path of life.
'... it's ways are ways of pleasantness and all it's paths are peace...'
Wookiemonster
The*****isBack
Actually you said:
If you meant something other than what I said, perhaps you should have stated so origionally rather than posting that you agree with my statement.
Yes I am. Hence my asking for scripture from the Tanakh regarding your claims that Abraham was "saved by his faith". If G-d truly wanted us to be saved by faith rather than actions don't you think he would have said so, rather than over and over agian stressing that we are to live by the Law? And yes I am looking for the words saved by faith in relation to Abraham. Beucase so far everyone who has made a claim on this thread has provided the scriptual versus that have lead them to belive their paticular points.
Totally agrre with you Knight, and I'm glad that you were up later than I to answer itwillend's post regarding Abraham.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Even though this may not sem like it to you, this is a passive approach to understanding God. My God demands actually abandoning any notion we have of Him, then begging for understanding of Him. At that point if He chooses to enlighten us, we then begin out journey.
Unlike your approach we can begin anytime. That is what I mean by you have a passive approach, an approach that anyone can start at any time.
I use to think like that, but realized the greater truth.
Of course that is just my belief.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Your level of understanding dismisses much the bible has to say. Salvation has already come. The second coming is only going to make our body match our soul. Read Corinthians 1 15 :35 +
Also, for your reference to Hebrew 9:28 try starting at vs 26.
This is where our fundamental difference is between you and I. Jesus suffered for our sins before the foundation of the world. What He did at the cross just demonstrated what he had already done for us.