If Paul's books are wrong than so are

[Just_me_Mike]

I don't think you understand the beauty of the law that God gave. It is a wonderful thing. It is why I remain and will forever remain a devout Noahide. When I serve God, it is uplifting, when I fulfill His commandments I realize that I am making this world a better place, that I am bringing His light down from heaven to shine on this Earth. God's law isn't meant to be "bondage" to us. It's not meant to be something that arises from abundant sin. Rather, it is a pact, between God and us. It is a covenant to the Jews, one that is meant for their blessing and through them the blessing of the entire world. This is the main reason I disagree with Paul, the way he talks so disgustingly about the law which all of the Tanakh proclaims as beautiful.

Brother, and you are my brother, I don't dismiss your passion and love one bit. It is to the glory of God that we believe what we believe whether we are right or wrong.

We will have to agree to disagree. You want to remain in bondage because it is your treasure and joy, because you feel like you are doing God's will. Your bondage is actually not bondage to you, but your connection to your God. Peace be unto you and may God bless you.

I believe God created us in His image to be perfect, and that is an impossible paradox he gave us, because no one will ever get the whole law right. It has never happened and it never will.
I believe it was never God's intention to keep us as servants, but to be as children. As long as we are under the bondage of the Law we will be servants to the Law and to God, but when we are free from the Law because of fulfillment to the Law we then children and not servants, which is what God wanted all along.

I wish you the best in your journey, and hope we can talk on some more issues in the future.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Oh o.k.

But you do agree that they both taught Torah? :yes:

Yes Jesus and Paul both taught from the foundation of the Torah.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It wasn't because they didn't know His will, it was because they knew it and did not obey it.


You do not know Judaism if you believe that it doesn't teach very much of abandoning the notion of self. Selflessness is the key to loving-kindness and loving kindness is the foundation on which the world was made.

Human refinement is necessary because God made us to refine ourselves. God made us as being separate from Him because He wanted something external (or seemingly external) to Him that He could relate to. He gave us the law for self-refinement. Observance of His law is how we show our love for Him. To quote Jesus "How can you say you love me if you do not obey my commandments?" I believe God poses the same question to us.

Where my belief differs than yours is that SIN will never let us Love the way God wants us to. So unless we can get rid of Sin we will never love out of the kind of heart God wants us to. In other words it is just lip service to the Law, and not pure Love for the Law

 

[TheKnight]

We will have to agree to disagree.

This is fine and dandy, and I'd figured we'd end up here.

But please tell me, do you see how it is that one can reject Paul and still believe in the veracity of the Tanakh? Paul sees the Law as bondage, whereas the Tanakh presents the law as service to God. There can be no greater joy than service of our Creator who has made us in His image.

 

[gwk230]

Yes Jesus and Paul both taught from the foundation of the Torah.

So far we are in complete agreement.

 

[TheKnight]

Where my belief differs than yours is that SIN will never let us Love the way God wants us to. So unless we can get rid of Sin we will never love out of the kind of heart God wants us to. In other words it is just lip service to the Law, and not pure Love for the Law

You misundestimate yourself. Wheres you see sin as something that only God can rid us of, I see sin as a challenge that God gives us. Something for us to overcome in order for us to prove our true love of Him.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

He is entirely concerned with this world. Don't forget, He made this world, He sustains this world, He is the one who put us here. That leads me to believe that His desire is that I live here, and live as He wants me to while I am here. The purpose of His creating is this world. After all, that's why He created it in the first place.

Please answer me this, Why do you believe God created this world and put us here on it?

To me the bible teaches he created this world for his own pleasure and purpose, and is not a respector of persons. However, if I only have the OT as a basis to understand what that means, I could never know the end of his purpose.
As it is, I do know the end of his purpose, it is to bring his people back to himself on a new heaven and a new earth. Which for God should not be a problem at all.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

This is fine and dandy, and I'd figured we'd end up here.

But please tell me, do you see how it is that one can reject Paul and still believe in the veracity of the Tanakh? Paul sees the Law as bondage, whereas the Tanakh presents the law as service to God. There can be no greater joy than service of our Creator who has made us in His image.

Yes I see there can be no greater joy than serving the law, unless somesthing greater came along.
Peace to you again.

 

[gwk230]

Yes I see there can be no greater joy than serving the law, unless somesthing greater came along.
Peace to you again.

In what manner of servitude do you mean?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You misundestimate yourself. Wheres you see sin as something that only God can rid us of, I see sin as a challenge that God gives us. Something for us to overcome in order for us to prove our true love of Him.

You can say that all you want, but that is not in the OT at all. I can easily see the logic behind what you are saying, but for a second think about this.
God made you in his image, is being less then perfect his image? Having your sin, will always keep you from knowing God's full love for you.

You already know that though, because you know the NT well enough. Again, I have no problem with where you are.
Definitely not worth fighting or arguing about right?

 

[TheKnight]

To me the bible teaches he created this world for his own pleasure and purpose, and is not a respector of persons. However, if I only have the OT as a basis to understand what that means, I could never know the end of his purpose.
As it is, I do know the end of his purpose, it is to bring his people back to himself on a new heaven and a new earth. Which for God should not be a problem at all.

How is it that this world accomplishes His pleasure and purpose? Why does He need this world for His pleasure?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

In what manner of servitude do you mean?

If all one had in their heart was the Law of God, than the servitude in whatever way was commanded would be the natural joy of the individual, but since something greater than the law has come, it no longer takes precedence.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

How is it that this world accomplishes His pleasure and purpose? Why does He need this world for His pleasure?

I dunno ask him? That is what he says,that everything he does is for his good pleasure and purpose.
Why does he need this world for his pleasure? Isn't that taking us back to the clay asking the potter why have you done this or that?

 

[gwk230]

If all one had in their heart was the Law of God, than the servitude in whatever way was commanded would be the natural joy of the individual, but since something greater than the law has come, it no longer takes precedence.

O.k. I'm not quite following your reply here. I asked in what manner of servitude and you give me whatever manner. Can you please be more precise?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

O.k. I'm not quite following your reply here. I asked in what manner of servitude and you give me whatever manner. Can you please be more precise?

Servitude, meaning whatever the OT commanded. Observe holy days, observe sacrifices, observice laws and ordinances...
Is that what you mean?

 

[TheKnight]

I dunno ask him? That is what he says,that everything he does is for his good pleasure and purpose.
Why does he need this world for his pleasure? Isn't that taking us back to the clay asking the potter why have you done this or that?

I'm merely asking for your opinion. My reason is, I want you to realize that we agree (sort of). You and I both agree that God created this world for His pleasure. We both agree that He created us to worship Him.

So tell me, how do we please God?

 

[Katzpur]

all the other books in the OT. Thus making the whole bible suspect!

Paul changed the apparent direction of what many thought would be God's direction in the OT. Is this the only reason people bash on him and his books?

As the story goes he got his revelation just as many of the people did in the OT. So what is it? Is it the message the turns "OT only" students off?

Thanks.

I've never been able to figure out why some people have such a dislike for Paul. I believe He was an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and was undoubtedly one of the most important individuals in the early Church. I have never thought his books (they were letters, actually, for the most part) were wrong.

 

[gwk230]

Servitude, meaning whatever the OT commanded. Observe holy days, observe sacrifices, observice laws and ordinances...
Is that what you mean?

And what type of servitude do you observe today?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I'm merely asking for your opinion. My reason is, I want you to realize that we agree (sort of). You and I both agree that God created this world for His pleasure. We both agree that He created us to worship Him.

So tell me, how do we please God?

That is just it, we can not please God. The moment we accept that is the moment we truly lose self.
It is only by his grace that He is saving a group of people to do with what He will do with them in the world to come.
As long as we feel we have some part or action in this grand plan of God's we miss the entire purpose.

The hard part for us as humans is we want to feel significant somehow and that our actions somehow justify our relationship with God. However God demands something even greater than that, which is why he gave us laws we could never fulfill.

It is this thinking that I can do this or that and be right with God, that makes God very jealous because he want to be the one to save us, he wants us to realize the Law is too much, otherwise we take His glory away and what he did through His son. It is really quite sad, you and I have such polar opposite ideas, because we both desire to represent God's love to each other.

We need to just sit back in awe, and pray for forgiveness for our arrogant assumptions, that he needs us to feel pleasure.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

And what type of servitude do you observe today?

As the publican stood in the book of Luke and did not as much as lift his head up, but smote his breast and said God forgive me I am a sinner.

That is the servitude God wants, he wants to be the one who does ALL the work for our salvation. So as soon as we try to observe some sacrifice or offering, we take away from what he has done for us, and this makes him very sad.