If Paul's books are wrong than so are

[Storm]

How so? you are comfortable with the OT being part of God's message according to Judaism,

No, I'm not. I'm comfortable with the OT being part of the Jews' thoughts on God. BIG difference.

but not Paul's.

Not anyone's.

You did draw a line, and I was being pushy to see why and how much you have actually studied them.

You have a bad habit of making assumptions about me and my thought process. Kindly stop it.

 

[Riverwolf]

That they were ALL inspired by God.

Well of course they were "inspired" by God; Footprints was inspired by God. Does that mean the poem should become Biblical canon? (Personally, I think it should; it's a wonderful poem. :yes

A better phrase to use would be to ask whether or not they were DICTATED by God, which I don't believe any of them were; I've seen no reason to believe God dictated ANYTHING to mankind.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No, I'm not. I'm comfortable with the OT being part of the Jews' thoughts on God. BIG difference.

I am not trying to draw conclusions. I agree with the above statement and thought that is what I said in my last.
The OT according to you is part of the Jew's thoughts on God, but you see Paul claims to be part of that also. I don't care what Judaism says about, I care what you say about it.

You disclaim Paul as being part of the same story. That is the line I am referring to.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Well of course they were "inspired" by God; Footprints was inspired by God. Does that mean the poem should become Biblical canon? (Personally, I think it should; it's a wonderful poem. :yes

A better phrase to use would be to ask whether or not they were DICTATED by God, which I don't believe any of them were; I've seen no reason to believe God dictated ANYTHING to mankind.

Cool, I hear ya.
For me the distinction from inspired is when we are talking about God's salvation plan. This is spoken of throughout the entire OT, and on into the NT.

The problem is Judaism doesn't accept what the NT says about salvation.
I don't believe footprints talks much about salvation.

 

[fantome profane]

Oh of course. I hope I did not imply something different.
I personally believe our very lives depend on getting it right, hence my reason for yacking about it all the time.

I certainly did get the impression that you were trying to imply that “If Paul’s books are wrong then so are all the other books in the OT”. I don’t know where I got that idea from and am glad to hear that you did not intend to imply this. So are you saying that “If Paul’s books are wrong then the book’s of the OT may or may not be wrong”? Is this what you are saying. I think you need to clarify your position here.

 

[Storm]

I am not trying to draw conclusions. I agree with the above statement and thought that is what I said in my last.

Not remotely. There is a HUGE difference between "God said ______" and "we think God is like this." I accept the OT, and indeed, Paul, as the latter. Not the former.

The OT according to you is part of the Jew's thoughts on God, but you see Paul claims to be part of that also. I don't care what Judaism says about, I care what you say about it.

Well, I DO care what the Judaism says about it, and so should you if you're going to claim Paul is part of Judaism.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I don't draw the line in the sand until I have given it all a chance.
In the end it is what we believe to be God's message and purpose. If something fits that it stays, if it doesn't it goes.

This sounds contrary to what you've said originally.

If something fits, it stays, if it doesn't, it goes... but you're saying if Paul doesn't fit, it all goes.

Make up your mind.

 

[TheKnight]

Do you know how clsoed minded that is? If that was SOOO true as you claim, there would not have been any Christian movement.

You really should stop assuming that what you think people are like is actually the case. I can understand how you can make that mistake as I have done it before.

In any case, it is not close-minded to reach a judgment based on what the scriptures say. There are clear and obvious messianic prophecies that Jesus does not fulfill. There are those who seek to reconcile these beliefs by coming up with fantastical interpretations of events.

You see I am willing to consider Judaism and learn from it, but the bitterness the comes the other way makes me feel something is wrong there.

In what way am I bitter? I have discovered something to be false and I proclaim it as so when others ask. Remember, you started this thread about the acceptance of the Tanakh and not Paul. You placed it in the religious debates section. That means you intended to discuss this. Did you not expect to read view other than your own?

I have read and studied the works of Paul and also the Tanakh. I was a Christian for 15 years and leaving it wasn't some sort of arbitrary decision that I made someday. It was the result of study and devotion to that which is true. I wanted to remain a Christian and tried to reconcile the problems and errors. However, my conscience did not allow me to continue proclaiming that which I know is not true.


Before you make accusations of bitterness, get to know a person first.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I certainly did get the impression that you were trying to imply that “If Paul’s books are wrong then so are all the other books in the OT”. I don’t know where I got that idea from and am glad to hear that you did not intend to imply this. So are you saying that “If Paul’s books are wrong then the book’s of the OT may or may not be wrong”? Is this what you are saying. I think you need to clarify your position here.

Understood.
Yes you see the whole bible is about God's salvation plan and judgment plan.
Paul's book addresses this very much so, as does the OT. So if Paul's books are wrong, that leaves open the possibility that the OT is wrong too, seeing the are ALL concerned with these two principles.

 

[Poisonshady313]

You really should stop assuming that what you think people are like is actually the case. I can understand how you can make that mistake as I have done it before.

In any case, it is not close-minded to reach a judgment based on what the scriptures say. There are clear and obvious messianic prophecies that Jesus does not fulfill. There are those who seek to reconcile these beliefs by coming up with fantastical interpretations of events.


In what way am I bitter? I have discovered something to be false and I proclaim it as so when others ask. Remember, you started this thread about the acceptance of the Tanakh and not Paul. You placed it in the religious debates section. That means you intended to discuss this. Did you not expect to read view other than your own?

I have read and studied the works of Paul and also the Tanakh. I was a Christian for 15 years and leaving it wasn't some sort of arbitrary decision that I made someday. It was the result of study and devotion to that which is true. I wanted to remain a Christian and tried to reconcile the problems and errors. However, my conscience did not allow me to continue proclaiming that which I know is not true.


Before you make accusations of bitterness, get to know a person first.

Chazak U'varuch!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You do?
You accept that God told Mohamed that Jesus was only a prophet? That the Bible is full of flaws, and that is why God had Mohamed write the Quran? If not, why not?
You accept that God told Joseph Smith that Jesus and Satan are brothers? That salvation for the woman depends on her husband? If not, why not?

Yes I did accept all of that, and in the end it did not hold up to the foundations the OT laid out for us.

 

[Storm]

Chazak U'varuch!

 

[Poisonshady313]

Paul's book addresses this very much so, as does the OT. So if Paul's books are wrong, that leaves open the possibility that the OT is wrong too, seeing the are ALL concerned with these two principles.

Unless of course you forgot to consider the possibility that Paul's writings are unholy, fraudulent pieces of literature, and connecting them to the Tanach is a desecration of holy scripture.

 

[Riverwolf]

For me the distinction from inspired is when we are talking about God's salvation plan. This is spoken of throughout the entire OT, and on into the NT.

Except God isn't even spoken of in some of the stories, like Esther (the Masoretic one), and doesn't make any explicit appearances in some of them, like the story of Joseph.

The problem is Judaism doesn't accept what the NT says about salvation.

Why is that a problem?

I don't believe footprints talks much about salvation.

It doesn't explicitly talk about it, but that doens't mean it's not there.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

This sounds contrary to what you've said originally.

If something fits, it stays, if it doesn't, it goes... but you're saying if Paul doesn't fit, it all goes.

Make up your mind.

To me Paul fit perfectly. My mind is made up.

 

[Poisonshady313]

It's kinda like a combination "kudos" and "congratulations"


The words are "Strength and Blessing".

 

[Storm]

Ah, thanks!

 

[Poisonshady313]

To me Paul fit perfectly. My mind is made up.

I don't trust your authority. People who know and understand the Tanach better than you have concluded that Paul's writings are unholy texts that are contrary to the Tanach. To throw out the Tanach because of a rejection of Paul is patently absurd.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You really should stop assuming that what you think people are like is actually the case. I can understand how you can make that mistake as I have done it before.

In any case, it is not close-minded to reach a judgment based on what the scriptures say. There are clear and obvious messianic prophecies that Jesus does not fulfill. There are those who seek to reconcile these beliefs by coming up with fantastical interpretations of events.


In what way am I bitter? I have discovered something to be false and I proclaim it as so when others ask. Remember, you started this thread about the acceptance of the Tanakh and not Paul. You placed it in the religious debates section. That means you intended to discuss this. Did you not expect to read view other than your own?

I have read and studied the works of Paul and also the Tanakh. I was a Christian for 15 years and leaving it wasn't some sort of arbitrary decision that I made someday. It was the result of study and devotion to that which is true. I wanted to remain a Christian and tried to reconcile the problems and errors. However, my conscience did not allow me to continue proclaiming that which I know is not true.


Before you make accusations of bitterness, get to know a person first.

Chill man, I was not meaning you were bitter, and even then bitter was not the best word. What I meant more clearly, was that I am willing to study Judaism, but when approaching people from that faith there is very little tolerance for the NT.
Sorry to mislead you with my comment, hope you forgive me.

 

[Riverwolf]

...I am willing to study Judaism, but when approaching people from that faith there is very little tolerance for the NT.

Well you need to learn to accept that.