If Paul's books are wrong than so are

[Just_me_Mike]

Unless of course you forgot to consider the possibility that Paul's writings are unholy, fraudulent pieces of literature, and connecting them to the Tanach is a desecration of holy scripture.

Knight are you reading the above statement? This is what I mean when I say I can study Judaism, but when it comes from the other direction this is often the attitude.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Except God isn't even spoken of in some of the stories, like Esther (the Masoretic one), and doesn't make any explicit appearances in some of them, like the story of Joseph.

No but salvation and judgment are found throughout, right?

Why is that a problem?

Exactly, what is the problem? More information about salvation could be a good thing, no?

 

[fantome profane]

Understood.
Yes you see the whole bible is about God's salvation plan and judgment plan.
Paul's book addresses this very much so, as does the OT. So if Paul's books are wrong, that leaves open the possibility that the OT is wrong too, seeing the are ALL concerned with these two principles.

The Qu’ran also tells of “God’s” plan for humanity, salvation and judgment. As does the book of Mormon. But I agree with you, if we are free to reject someone’s claim to divine revelation then we must also evaluate all claims of divine revelation. And if we are not free to reject someone’s claim to divine revelation, then that is just absurd.


The “possibility is open” as you say that Paul’s writings are wrong. It is possible that Paul is wrong but other books in the New Testament are right. It is possible that all the New testament is wrong but the OT is right. It is possible that some books in the OT are right but other are wrong. It is possible that some books in the OT and some books in the NT are wrong. All these possibilities are open.

You may believe that the “whole Bible” presents a single coherent message, others disagree.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I don't trust your authority. People who know and understand the Tanach better than you have concluded that Paul's writings are unholy texts that are contrary to the Tanach. To throw out the Tanach because of a rejection of Paul is patently absurd.

Peace to you, and your beliefs, thanks for sharing your point of view.

I am concerned with what my heart tells me and my studies tell me, not what some "people who know and understand the Tanach"

 

[Poisonshady313]

Knight are you reading the above statement? This is what I mean when I say I can study Judaism, but when it comes from the other direction this is often the attitude.

The result of studying is what formulates my conclusion.. not an unwillingness to study.

If I refrained from studying Christian texts, I probably would be a lot kinder, because I wouldn't know any better.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Well you need to learn to accept that.

What accept non-tolerance is part of Judaism?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Peace to you, and your beliefs, thanks for sharing your point of view.

I am concerned with what my heart tells me and my studies tell me, not what some "people who know and understand the Tanach"

It is important to learn from people smarter than yourself. If you start making decisions based on your own personal feelings, you may very well be very wrong.

 

[Storm]

What accept non-tolerance is part of Judaism?

Rejection of the NT does not equate to intolerance.

 

[Poisonshady313]

What accept non-tolerance is part of Judaism?

No... accept that the Jewish position toward Christianity is an unfriendly one.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You may believe that the “whole Bible” presents a single coherent message, others disagree.

Yes after years of study, that is where one should end up, but not just from blind rhetoric.

 

[Storm]

Yes after years of study, that is where one should end up, but not just from blind rhetoric.

No, that's where you happened to end up. Other conclusions are valid.

 

[gwk230]

For example, it was originally hoped that Christ would be a ruler on this earth and setup a "government" to rule. Paul teach as well as Jesus in the Gospels of something much different.

　
I see. Your speaking in terms as at the time Shaul was speaking in his letters. Your not saying that he changed the direction of the OT but rather the understanding that the people then had as to what their Moshiach was to be. They themselves wanted someone to come and save them from what they were going through with the Romans so since Yahshua came first as is prophesied in Zec 9:9 as basically a lamb and not as they wanted him as is prophesied in Dan 7:13-14 they rejected him.
　
I do however don’t quite see your thinking on the teachings of Shaul and Yahshua as being any different than that as was conveyed in the OT.
　
Care to elaborate?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Yes after years of study, that is where one should end up, but not just from blind rhetoric.

The problem begins when one party dismisses years of study as being nothing more than blind rhetoric.

You haven't considered the possibility that people like Knight and I have studied these things deeply and concluded that the Tanach is complete without Christian scriptures.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

The result of studying is what formulates my conclusion.. not an unwillingness to study.

If I refrained from studying Christian texts, I probably would be a lot kinder, because I wouldn't know any better.

Well I am here to learn, an unwillingness you seem to express on your part by attacking me.
I am open to discuss why Paul is wrong, but I need more than just "he's wrong".
Maybe we can discuss it sometime.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It is important to learn from people smarter than yourself. If you start making decisions based on your own personal feelings, you may very well be very wrong.

When it comes to the things of God I trust God can guide us into truth. The trap to me is thinking "only if I can find one smarter than me".
Just my opinion though.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Well I am here to learn, an unwillingness you seem to express on your part by attacking me.
I am open to discuss why Paul is wrong, but I need more than just "he's wrong".
Maybe we can discuss it sometime.

Sure.

But a "he's wrong" should suffice in justifying our position that Pauls writings and the Tanach are mutually exclusive.

If you want to delve deeper, feel free... but please don't assume that we haven't given it any thought.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No... accept that the Jewish position toward Christianity is an unfriendly one.

Oh I think killing Jesus showed that ey?

 

[Poisonshady313]

When it comes to the things of God I trust God can guide us into truth. The trap to me is thinking "only if I can find one smarter than me".
Just my opinion though.

God established judges and Rabbis, that when there is a matter of dispute, we should bring it to them.

It is contained within the word of God that we are not supposed to be alone in learning... but we are supposed to be taught.

I'm not just making this stuff up.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No, that's where you happened to end up. Other conclusions are valid.

You misread my post then.
I was saying that yes after years of study SHOULD make a person end up either believing the whole bible or not.
Different than someone (not impying you) not doing the study for themselves.

 

[fantome profane]

Oh I think killing Jesus showed that ey?

Whooh!!!, Talk about being unfriendly!:run: