If the Bible is so primitive, why can't Historians come up with their own Bible?

[ChristineM]

I doubt the Bible's hundreds of thousands of years old. I'm thinking more like 2000 years at best.

Oldest books about 2500 years ago newest are still being modified to suite modern sensibilities.

 

[HonestJoe]

So, why can't Atheists, Scientists and Historians write a History Book like the Bible?

Why would they try? The Bible was written/compiled for a specific purpose of supporting and promoting religion. Why would anyone put together a text supporting and promoting a religion if they have no interest in doing so?

Also, I think you're conflating the "success" of the Bible with the "success" of the Christian church. Much of the dominance of the Bible across wider art and culture is because of the "Christian" theocracy that operated across large swathes of the world over long periods of time. It would be difficult to write an alternative when doing so would be socially or even legally prohibited.

 

[Justme1981]

It is now 3:19 am where I am. I drank some beer and went to the local Sushi Bar to have some Sushi, noodles, and Saki (cold house Saki, never buy warm Saki). I am fatter than the Happy Monk who is also a Buddha.

The point I am making after the all the books I have read, nothing beats the Bible. We are living in Old Testament times right now where people are choosing the same Demagogue over God and these people are largely Atheist. I can look to wisdom for it and be comforted that it is as it was it will be this way for a period of time.

I look to the comments and there is nothing that appeals to me, nothing to respond to. The Atheist, Historian, Scientist has no truth that can guide me or anyone else. I don't think they know how to explore life. Well, at least read that Christian Hegel's Introduction to the History of the World. I'm trying to be honest about books that have influenced me as much as the Bible and all I can think about is Hegel and his Elements of the Philosophy of Right, which I am.

There is no philosophy now. Engineers created our world not scientists, Henry Ford made the car, the Orville brothers made planes, Thomas Edison discovered electricity. They were all engineers and not scientists. What do scientists do? Absolutely nothing. Stephen Hawking never gave us anything like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos gave us. All my friends that are Engineers believe in God. Well, so it is. Once you lose the Elements of Philosophy of Right you lose all your practicality in creating.

That's it. I will start another flash discussion some other day about two hours before I drink. For everyone who thought and struggled thank you. For everyone who just toed the ideological lines, what makes you different than McDonald's eater; McDonald's after all has grade A prime beef and Warren Buffet eats it almost daily.

 

[Justme1981]

Oh, I meant Wright Brothers. One day you will know focusing on minutia and learning trivia is a disability. Do not read about the Protestant Aquinas Hegel, read Hegel. Anyone who writes about the Elements of the Philosophy of Right is religious. And if you can't read Hegel or the Bible, which is written at 12th grade level, then don't complain about McDonalds.

Cheers!

 

[shunyadragon]

This should be printed in gold, it's so concise and full of great insight.

I like the oft forgotten poetic work of Lucretius called De rerum natura of 'On the Nature of Things.' This literary work dating from 50 BCE shows great insight into our contemporary view of cosmology and the history of the earth and life,

 

[ChristineM]

It is now 3:19 am where I am. I drank some beer and went to the local Sushi Bar to have some Sushi, noodles, and Saki (cold house Saki, never buy warm Saki). I am fatter than the Happy Monk who is also a Buddha.

The point I am making after the all the books I have read, nothing beats the Bible. We are living in Old Testament times right now where people are choosing the same Demagogue over God and these people are largely Atheist. I can look to wisdom for it and be comforted that it is as it was it will be this way for a period of time.

I look to the comments and there is nothing that appeals to me, nothing to respond to. The Atheist, Historian, Scientist has no truth that can guide me or anyone else. I don't think they know how to explore life. Well, at least read that Christian Hegel's Introduction to the History of the World. I'm trying to be honest about books that have influenced me as much as the Bible and all I can think about is Hegel and his Elements of the Philosophy of Right, which I am.

There is no philosophy now. Engineers created our world not scientists, Henry Ford made the car, the Orville brothers made planes, Thomas Edison discovered electricity. They were all engineers and not scientists. What do scientists do? Absolutely nothing. Stephen Hawking never gave us anything like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos gave us. All my friends that are Engineers believe in God. Well, so it is. Once you lose the Elements of Philosophy of Right you lose all your practicality in creating.

That's it. I will start another flash discussion some other day about two hours before I drink. For everyone who thought and struggled thank you. For everyone who just toed the ideological lines, what makes you different than McDonald's eater; McDonald's after all has grade A prime beef and Warren Buffet eats it almost daily.

Your personal opinion is just that, personal.

And of course you are still hypocritically claiming "What do scientists do? Absolutely nothing." While using the benefits of science to make the claim.
Without thousands of people like Hawking you would have no computer, no cell phone, no internet. You would have no medical imagery, cancers would still be as untreatable as 50, 100, 2500 years ago. Genetic science has saved the lives of at least one billion people. How many bibles does it take to save a billion lives?

Ask your god believing engineering friends just how much of their work was invented by science, depends on science for success? Im sure as god believers they would be honest with you.

Go on, just ask, you may actually learn something... But remember, its difficult for a deliberately closed mind to absorb knowledge.

 

[SomeRandom]

The point I am making after the all the books I have read, nothing beats the Bible.

And to a Bardolotist (is that a word? Meh I'm using it anyway) nothing beats the works of Shakespeare. To a myth nerd nothing beats the insert favourite myth/s here. The Bible is your favourite, ain't nothing wrong with that. But it's still all subjective.

The point I am making after the all the books I have read, nothing beats the Bible. We are living in Old Testament times right now where people are choosing the same Demagogue over God and these people are largely Atheist.

I don't think that's a very fair generalization. You wanna go that route, I can say that I see more atheists created by Christians each and every day, through their actions, through their hubris, through their ignorance and denial and/or bashing of science (hint hint hint.)
And of course the Bible would say that, wouldn't it. Eh.

I can look to wisdom for it and be comforted that it is as it was it will be this way for a period of time.

Isn't wisdom supposed to challenge instead of comfort?

I look to the comments and there is nothing that appeals to me, nothing to respond to.

That's fine, I can say the same of many Holy texts, including the Bible. Ever hear of different strokes for different folks?

The Atheist, Historian, Scientist has no truth that can guide me or anyone else. I don't think they know how to explore life.

Speak for yourself, this theist can find infinitely more intellectually honest and challenging material from an average Historian than any theologian of any stripe.
And what truth are you speaking of, specifically? That sounds more like dogma, scientists typically explain the world around them. Sure it can be dry, in fact isn't that why a lot of the artistic philosophies came into existence? Because they found science too dry to be artistic?
But scientific explanation serves its purpose just fine. I would hardly want to read a dissertation on quantum physics by a literary genius. Just saying.

There is no philosophy now. Engineers created our world not scientists, Henry Ford made the car, the Orville brothers made planes, Thomas Edison discovered electricity. They were all engineers and not scientists. What do scientists do? Absolutely nothing. Stephen Hawking never gave us anything like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos gave us. All my friends that are Engineers believe in God. Well, so it is. Once you lose the Elements of Philosophy of Right you lose all your practicality in creating.

I dunno. Scientists are more analytical true, but so a many art majors these days. I once had a discussion with my English teaching cousin over Lolita and wow. Just wow. But I would not expect the same from his brother, a Deputy Principal, because he excelled at math. People are good at different things, that's why we have disciplines in the first place, right?

That's it. I will start another flash discussion some other day about two hours before I drink. For everyone who thought and struggled thank you. For everyone who just toed the ideological lines, what makes you different than McDonald's eater; McDonald's after all has grade A prime beef and Warren Buffet eats it almost daily.

I'm no prime beef, I'm no warren buffet (because I genuinely don't know what that is) I am a mere idiot drunkenly positing random crap on a forum, which let's be real here, rarely reaches the lofty aspirations of actual intellectual discourse happening in the academic elite.

 

[shunyadragon]

Not only does the bible contain some extremely "futuristic" concepts -U.F.O.s/flying craft piloted by thought/intent (Daniel) Matrix/Forbidden Planet -style learning (first mention of spirit of God after Genesis) -separating and storage of mind/spirit, transference of mind/spirit to more powerful and invulnerable body, etc...... it also contains an overall plan (actually known by few -even of those who claim to believe in the bible) to answer all of man's problems, which recognizes and addresses all of the core issues.
Add to that a perfectly accurate and rather detailed overview of world events yet future -which continue to happen as written -and the bible is definitely unique.

As an example, the following describes the recent, present and future situations in/around Jerusalem -which precede Israel being attacked by its neighbors, followed by major world powers with various intentions as described elsewhere...

2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first.......

This very over the top interpretation of ancient scripture that is over loaded in conjecture and speculation. With a heavy imagination any ancient scripture of the world can be fertile ground for hypothetical speculation.

Extremely futuristic?!?!!??!???!? All I see here is science fiction and X files speculation.

 

[SomeRandom]

Oh, I meant Wright Brothers. One day you will know focusing on minutia and learning trivia is a disability. Do not read about the Protestant Aquinas Hegel, read Hegel. Anyone who writes about the Elements of the Philosophy of Right is religious. And if you can't read Hegel or the Bible, which is written at 12th grade level, then don't complain about McDonalds.

Cheers!

Reading at a 12th grade reading level is hardly worth celebrating, unless you're like in grade 10 yourself. And I dunno, mate, in many English speaking European countries, pretty sure they consider the 12th grade reading level as kind of pathetically simple, because of the way their education system/s work. And most likely because of their language comprehension teachings in general. (Don't take this as fact, obviously. Just something I've noticed through the years.) Like for example many of my French counterparts seem to consider Dumas as mere child's play, something you give to kids to read for homework. In the West he is lauded as part of the illustrious canon, albeit accessible despite the size of his books.
I dunno, the more I interact with peeps in Europe, the more I question the so called Western Academia, at least in terms of so called "reading levels." They seem to outshine our meager intelligence at every turn imaginable. But that's just been my experience.
Also the Bible runs the gamut of reading levels, depending on the translation. Rarely does it go above maybe 10th grade for us modern peeps. (Which I think is roughly the equivalent for 9th grade in Aus. That's more based on the different school ages though.)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But since the Bible was written hundreds of thousands of years ago, ...

 

[shunyadragon]

I doubt the Bible's hundreds of thousands of years old. I'm thinking more like 2000 years at best.

Maybe ~3000 years od for the Pentateuch at most. Though the sources of the Pentateuch and parts of the Psalms my date to older Babylonian, Ugarit and Canaanite cuneiform tables

 

[nPeace]

The closest Philosopher who attempted to write a Bible is Nietzsche with his Thus Spake Zarathustra. Good luck living by it.

But since the Bible was written hundreds of thousands of years ago, no one ancient or modern has ever been able to duplicate the interaction of History, Art, Literature, Religion and Spirituality like the Bible. Well, we can be honest and look to Herodotus The Histories or Maybe Thucydides the Pelopenesian War, but really having read them in college neither gets close. Nietzche was the closest in his cynical way.

So, why can't Atheists, Scientists and Historians write a History Book like the Bible? You may write, "because the Bible is untrue," well wouldn't it make sense, if that is your argument, to turn recorded events into teachable moments? There is nothing a Historian ever written that is as universal and insightful as the Bible.

So, discuss. Atheists, where are your great minds that they cannot achieve such a simple goal? (sarcasm and irony noted)

This is a great thread you created here - very informative.
The Bible is by far the most widely used, distributed, translated, and sold book in the world.
According to Guinness World Records, the Bible is the best-selling book of all time

However, apart from those facts, I think you made a very valid point. If the Bible was written by primitives, and has such value, as to be so widely valued, why has it not been matched, or exceeded by any modern existence?

Besides that, one very clear evidence of the authenticity of the Bible, is the fact that it was written by more than three dozen men, of very different walks of life, who lived over vast time periods, some stretching for hundred of years, over a period of sixteen centuries, yet there is complete harmony on [[[[ a universal purpose as given by the God they worshiped. ]]]]
How can that be possible, unless the Bible was in fact authored by one God?
I don't see how.

If I distributed pieces of a puzzle to people living over a period of sixteen centuries, and all the pieces can be fitted together perfectly to make a beautiful picture, I have accomplished something that could only be done by any human if it were planned out well in advance. If that was the plan and work of primitives, then they are way more advanced in knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and ability, than any human alive today.

 

[nPeace]

Not really. It can be reinterpreted so that it may look that way, but those that wrote the first part would almost certainly not agree with the second part.

Doesn't mean there isn't one thread running from Genesis to Revelation.
I can interpret your words however I wish - so that they even sound like you said utter nonsense... it doesn't change what you said and meant.

 

[nPeace]

By any objective standard its the most read book in known history. It’s remained as relevant now as when it’s first stories were passed down through oral tradition. I can not think of any work that has influenced history and civilisation to the same extent over the last one thousand years.

The Quran, Vedic texts, and Early Buddhist writings are the best examples for comparison in regards longevity and influence on history.

Also interesting - the Quran points to the writings in the Bible.

 

[shunyadragon]

This is a great thread you created here - very informative.
The Bible is by far the most widely used, distributed, translated, and sold book in the world.
According to Guinness World Records, the Bible is the best-selling book of all time

However, apart from those facts, I think you made a very valid point. If the Bible was written by primitives, and has such value, as to be so widely valued, why has it not been matched, or exceeded by any modern existence?

As far as content, knowledge, and information it has been far surpassed by millions of volumes of literature, science, theology and philosophy.. Even the writings of Lucretius in 50 BCE were more relevant to the contemporary world as far as science goes than the Bible,

Careful with 'arguing from popularity,' It is a fallacy. The Bible is popular because Christianity is one of the largest religions of the world.

Besides that, one very clear evidence of the authenticity of the Bible, is the fact that it was written by more than three dozen men, of very different walks of life, who lived over vast time periods, some stretching for hundred of years, over a period of sixteen centuries, yet there is complete harmony on [[[[ a universal purpose as given by the God they worshiped. ]]]]
How can that be possible, unless the Bible was in fact authored by one God?
I don't see how.

Very vary easy the above is a hypothetical anecdotal argument based on a biased religous agenda nad not based on the facts of the history of the text of the Bible,

If I distributed pieces of a puzzle to people living over a period of sixteen centuries, and all the pieces can be fitted together perfectly to make a beautiful picture, I have accomplished something that could only be done by any human if it were planned out well in advance. If that was the plan and work of primitives, then they are way more advanced in knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and ability, than any human alive today.

Human are very imaginative and creative over the millennia in Creating literature. The Bible is not advanced. It is a very primitive literary work partly based on older Canaanite, Ugarit and Babylonian literature,

 

[shunyadragon]

Also interesting - the Quran points to the writings in the Bible.

Yes, and so does the Baha'i scripture.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Doesn't mean there isn't one thread running from Genesis to Revelation.
I can interpret your words however I wish - so that they even sound like you said utter nonsense... it doesn't change what you said and meant.

It doesn't mean that there is either. And since you are the one claiming that there is it puts a massive burden of proof upon you. And since we know that large parts of the Bible are mythical how do you interpret those parts of the Bible? That is another problem for you.

 

[sojourner]

How are the reviewers chosen? Who chooses the Peers? Doesn't seem to work out well for a jury where there is great effort in reviewing people. Who is this elite group of people who by some authority get to decide what is rightt or wrong. Sound like a scam to me. Have you met these people? Do they have wives and families and do they live normal lives? Or do they all have long beards and long hair? Or do they all wear glasses and are socially awkward? Sounds like a low standard to be a peer reviewer.

Cheers!

By this post, I can surmise that either: 1) your claims to scholasticism are overblown, or, 2) your post here is intentionally provocative. Peer review is the scholastic standard.

 

[nPeace]

It doesn't mean that there is either. And since you are the one claiming that there is it puts a massive burden of proof upon you. And since we know that large parts of the Bible are mythical how do you interpret those parts of the Bible? That is another problem for you.

The problem is, you think I have a problem.
What I do find interesting is that the burden of proof always lies with the Christian, but it never is on the atheist, even when he makes flat out statement like

we know that large parts of the Bible are mythical

He knows, but the Christian,,, what does he know... he believes the Bible, how could he possibly know anything.

 

[sojourner]

Of course, there are brilliant minds who excel above all others and run the gamut in many disciplines. Exemplary minds are not the norm, even in academia, insofar as "multitasking" is concerned anyway. Besides science has largely drifted away from philosophy making the overlap dwindle slightly, it could be argued. And there are many tomes on ethics, philosophy and indeed morality if you so desire. There are even collections of various writers on such topics, complete with academic essays dissecting them all. So you can create a Bible of sorts using various scientists, philosophers and forward thinkers, if one has the desire to do so. Will it contain the literary devices of the Bible? Depends on how literary the writers are in the first place.
I'm still not sure why you want scientists to act like artists, though.


Well there is no accounting for taste, I suppose.

Also just had to say this, but popularity does not automatically equal great. Otherwise McDonalds would be considered fine dining. Hitting the "sweet spot" for the general proletariat is not really a mark of intellectual greatness. Mere popularity, deserved or not, is a rather a shallow marker in any case.

I love your reference to McDonald’s. Perfect!