If the whole world were atheist, would the world be a better place?

[Rival]

That's right: it doesn't matter.

Stalin's actions match with what we would expect from a violent man who wanted to eliminate threats to his power and wanted - like many theocrats - to re-shape religion according to his values.

Yes, things could be very nasty for someone in the Soviet Union whose religious beliefs didn't match those endorsed by the leader of the country, but the same could be said for a Protestant living in the Papal States... and you wouldn't say that the Pope was an atheist, would you?

I have read biography after biography about Stalin. He was an atheist. Not sure why this is an issue, to be honest. He became such after reading Darwin.
He razed Churches to the ground and Protestants don't do really do that. They were just iconoclastic.

 

[Desert Snake]

No, not really.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have read biography after biography about Stalin. He was an atheist. Not sure why this is an issue, to be honest. He became such after reading Darwin.
He razed Churches to the ground and Protestants don't do really do that. They were just iconoclastic.

And honestly, I have no idea whether Stalin was atheist. I just think it's bizarre when people point to things that Stalin did as evidence of his atheism, but ignore that they're all key tactics in the theocrat's playbook.

I also find it bizarre that people point to religious oppression as a reason for atheists not to be in control when history shows us that religious devotion, and not atheistic ideologies, are much more likely to result in oppression of religious dissidents.

I think that the difference is that religious people often imagine theocracy as one based on their own religious beliefs, where they aren't being persecuted themselves and the people being oppressed are those they see as "heretics," so they don't see theocracy as being that bad.

 

[Sully]

We are seeing what it will be like...more and more we see "Western" nations losing faith and sinking into secular humanism. Things are getting much worse. The decline in faith has lead to a corresponding increase in nihilism. Our crass, narcissistic culture is a result...everyone does what one believes is right in his or her own eyes. A real democracy can only really work when it is on based having a common set of moral values, Alexis de Tocqueville wrote America is great because America is good (referring directly to its Christian values); he went on to write, when America is no longer good she will no longer be great. America is no longer great (nor the West in general) because of the loss of faith has led to a decline of civil society...all those organic civil organizations that were the by products of Church and Synagogue provided much of the support for society (read: Bowling Alone or Coming Apart). When that common set of shared values is lost government and courts step in to impose it...tyranny will eventually result.

 

[syo]

A lot of people are kind and honest because they fear God. A lot of people are charitable and honest because they love God.

I think these two sentences say it all.

 

[McBell]

My question is for atheists. If the whole world was atheist, do you think the world would be a better place?

Have a few questions....
Are you asking if there never was religion, ever?
Or if religion was suddenly forgotten world wide?
or if religion was some how abolished?

What are the parameters for "better"?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think these two sentences say it all.

Though they aren't true, IMO.

The way I see it, religion is something people use to justify what they want to do anyway. The people who think God wants them to be kind or honest are the people who think being kind or honest is what they should be doing anyway; if they didn't, they wouldn't have decided that their God feels this way.

The ways that religion can be useful in encouraging desires behaviour - e.g. providing a community of supportive people who you're somewhat accountable to for your behaviour, or encouraging you to instil positive habits, certainly aren't unique to religion and are often lacking from religious groups.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

As yet you have made assertions that only make sense to American revisionist history which brands communism as evil (McCarthyism) and anything not American style nationalism as "anti everything we hold dear"

No, I haven't. I haven't even said that Communism is evil. I've said that Marxism necessitates atheism, which it does. I've stated that Stalin was a Marxist, which he was, and that numerous historians agree that in terms of personal belief, Stalin was an atheist.

I have also stated - which is continually being ignored - that such are not evidences towards the morality of atheists or atheism en masse, but that it gives example to how people in general can be horrible and violent, regardless of their beliefs.

They were all wars started in the name of religion, whether for a particular label or against it.

Clearly not, and some of them aren't even wars that your listed, but countries and regions.

And it seems the 7% (ill take your word) accounted for over 800 million deaths which was my contention from the beginning.

Okay and even granting that, how many lives were lost in the remaining 93% of wars? I would bet quite a bit that they far exceed 800 million.

One thing is for sure, given the ubiquitous nature of religion,the vast majority of fighter held some sort of religious fairth.

Well then you can practically say religion causes anything. Some number of wife beaters are religious, so religion causes spousal abuse; it's a preposterous association.

And honestly, I have no idea whether Stalin was atheist. I just think it's bizarre when people point to things that Stalin did as evidence of his atheism, but ignore that they're all key tactics in the theocrat's playbook.

They're "key tactics" in the playbook of anyone who wants to get and hold power - regardless of religious belief.

 

[ChristineM]

No, I haven't. I haven't even said that Communism is evil. I've said that Marxism necessitates atheism, which it does. I've stated that Stalin was a Marxist, which he was, and that numerous historians agree that in terms of personal belief, Stalin was an atheist.

I have also stated - which is continually being ignored - that such are not evidences towards the morality of atheists or atheism en masse, but that it gives example to how people in general can be horrible and violent, regardless of their beliefs.


Clearly not, and some of them aren't even wars that your listed, but countries and regions.


Okay and even granting that, how many lives were lost in the remaining 93% of wars? I would bet quite a bit that they far exceed 800 million.


Well then you can practically say religion causes anything. Some number of wife beaters are religious, so religion causes spousal abuse; it's a preposterous association.


They're "key tactics" in the playbook of anyone who wants to get and hold power - regardless of religious belief.

Ok, an atheist who was known as the only christian in the Kremlin, said "Christ lived", has a library of Christian books, rebuilt the Christian infrastructure after destroying the tsarist bastardisation the church, opened 20,000+ churches, donated millions of ruble's to the church and had 3 Christian archbishops officiate at his funeral. All very atheist don't you think?

My argument is not the morality of atheism, for i believe it generally takes a more moral stance than religion. My argument is the mislabeling of Stalin.

Clearly so.

Are we now going into political wars too?

 

[Laika]

Ok, an atheist who was known as the only christian in the Kremlin, said "Christ lived", has a library of Christian books, rebuilt the Christian infrastructure after destroying the tsarist bastardisation the church, opened 20,000+ churches, donated millions of ruble's to the church and had 3 Christian archbishops officiate at his funeral. All very atheist don't you think?

My argument is not the morality of atheism, for i believe it generally takes a more moral stance than religion. My argument is the mislabeling of Stalin.

Clearly so.

Are we now going into political wars too?

Would you be kind enough to provide a source for the claim/statement that Stalin was "the only christian in the Kremlin"?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Would you be kind enough to provide a source for the claim/statement that Stalin was "the only christian in the Kremlin"?

I was just about to mention this. It's a sourceless claim, and thus is pretty useless so far as counter-points go.

My argument is the mislabeling of Stalin.

Plainly and weakly against every account of Stalin's actions and person as studied for decades. The only people that I've ever seen try to reject atheists who climbed to power and did horrible things are those trying to employ the "No True Scotsman" fallacy; that is trying - in vain - to disassociate atheism from violence and oppression. It doesn't work for the Christians, and it doesn't work for Atheists. It doesn't work for anyone because - say it with me - people are s**t and anyone regardless of their belief or non-belief can be a monster.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Plainly and weakly against every account of Stalin's actions and person as studied for decades. The only people that I've ever seen try to reject atheists who climbed to power and did horrible things are those trying to employ the "No True Scotsman" fallacy; that is trying - in vain - to disassociate atheism from violence and oppression. It doesn't work for the Christians, and it doesn't work for Atheists. It doesn't work for anyone because - say it with me - people are s**t and anyone regardless of their belief or non-belief can be a monster.

OTOH, trying to tar people with the same brush because they all don't believe in the same thing is pretty sketchy.

Trying to insinuate that Stalin's atrocities have anything to do with the beliefs of a modern-day freethinking secular humanist skeptic on the grounds that neither of them believe in God is as dishonest as saying that the Spanish Inquisition has something to do with adherents of traditional African religions on the grounds that they're both "non-Confucians."

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

OTOH, trying to tar people with the same brush because they all don't believe in the same thing is pretty sketchy.

Whew! Good thing that's not what I was doing, and have repeatedly stated that his actions only lend the example that even non-theists can be horrible people, in relation and answer to the topic's thesis of whether or not the world would be a better place if everyone were an atheist.

 

[ChristineM]

Would you be kind enough to provide a source for the claim/statement that Stalin was "the only christian in the Kremlin"?

I can't find the text but Svetlana Stalin is one

 

[Laika]

I can't find the text but Svetlana Stalin is one

As the crux of your argument hinges on claiming that Stalin was not an atheist but was a Christian, finding a specific source would greatly help your case.

I've heard people say Stalin was "influenced" by Christianity and I could go along with that up to a point, as Communist Revolutionaries are as much a product of their cultural environment as everyone else. They would even concede as much if you caught them in less than fanatical mood. The same goes for Mao and Pol Pot being "influenced" by Buddhism,etc. There is a plausible argument that Chinese Communists favoured Re-education because of their traditions, whereas Russian Communists were more in favour of Punishment but it would never have been an intention of either group because of how deeply they wanted to overthrow pre-communist cultural and social norms.

However, saying Stalin was Christian whilst in charge of the USSR is quite a different thing and doesn't fit within the context of Marxism or Dialectical Materialism as an Atheistic ideology which Stalin outwardly professed to adhere to and expected everyone else to.

 

[ChristineM]

I was just about to mention this. It's a sourceless claim, and thus is pretty useless so far as counter-points go.


Plainly and weakly against every account of Stalin's actions and person as studied for decades. The only people that I've ever seen try to reject atheists who climbed to power and did horrible things are those trying to employ the "No True Scotsman" fallacy; that is trying - in vain - to disassociate atheism from violence and oppression. It doesn't work for the Christians, and it doesn't work for Atheists. It doesn't work for anyone because - say it with me - people are s**t and anyone regardless of their belief or non-belief can be a monster.

Once again you are attempting to confuse the issue which as far as i understood was mislabelling Stalin.

I dont give a hoot whether Christians believe fact or not, they are really well known for ignoring inconvenient facts

I think id rather believe the Patriarch Kirill of the Orthodox Russian church than McCarthyism

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Once again you are attempting to confuse the issue which as far as i understood was mislabelling Stalin.

No, the issue was "would the world be better if everyone was atheist". To which I basically said "No, just look at Stalin." Then you and a couple other atheist pulled a "Nuh-uh not all atheists/he wasn't an atheist" and have since been trying to make it like I was saying that all atheists are rotten people, or that (somehow) I'm promoting anti-communism/"communism is evil". Straw-men them all.

I dont give a hoot whether Christians believe fact or not, they are really well known for ignoring inconvenient facts

A.) Who the blazes said anything about Christians accepting fact or not?
B.) "Nuh-uh because his daughter said..." does not logically win out over decades of historical study. When a mother tearfully says that her mass-murdering son just couldn't have done it because "he was such a sweet boy", does that mean he's innocent?

 

[ChristineM]

As the crux of your argument hinges on claiming that Stalin was not an atheist but was a Christian, finding a specific source would greatly help your case.

I've heard people say Stalin was "influenced" by Christianity and I could go along with that up to a point, as Communist Revolutionaries are as much a product of their cultural environment as everyone else. They would even concede as much if you caught them in less than fanatical mood. The same goes for Mao and Pol Pot being "influenced" by Buddhism,etc. There is a plausible argument that Chinese Communists favoured Re-education because of their traditions, whereas Russian Communists were more in favour of Punishment but it would never have been an intention of either group because of how deeply they wanted to overthrow pre-communist cultural and social norms.

However, saying Stalin was Christian whilst in charge of the USSR is quite a different thing and doesn't fit within the context of Marxism or Dialectical Materialism as an Atheistic ideology which Stalin outwardly professed to adhere to and expected everyone else to.

It actually fits quite well, he was, above all a nationalist and used the teachings of Christianity, Romans 13:1-2 comes to mind.

 

[ChristineM]

No, the issue was "would the world be better if everyone was atheist". To which I basically said "No, just look at Stalin." Then you and a couple other atheist pulled a "Nuh-uh not all atheists/he wasn't an atheist" and have since been trying to make it like I was saying that all atheists are rotten people, or that (somehow) I'm promoting anti-communism/"communism is evil". Straw-men them all.


A.) Who the blazes said anything about Christians accepting fact or not?
B.) "Nuh-uh because his daughter said..." does not logically win out over decades of historical study. When a mother tearfully says that her mass-murdering son just couldn't have done it because "he was such a sweet boy", does that mean he's innocent?

Because Stalin was not atheist. Yes he was a murdering despot egomaniac but he used Marxist policies to consolidate his power

I did. Is that a problem?

"Study" tempered by McCarty reds under the bed means nothing.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Because Stalin was not atheist.

According to you and (kind of) his daughter.

"Study" tempered by McCarty reds under the bed means nothing.