If there was universe before big bang

[Twilight Hue]

The idea of the multiverse doesn't explain anything as it is not actual science. It is theoretical physics and not backed up actual tests and observations.

That's true.

 

[sun rise]

The idea of the multiverse doesn't explain anything as it is not actual science. It is theoretical physics and not backed up actual tests and observations.

Theory and experiments are two components of science.

There has been an ongoing debate about testing various multiverse theories. Testing Multiverse Theories: Approaching Practice (Chapter 8) - Multiverse Theories for one.

But no doubt this is a very hard to test set of theories.

 

[PruePhillip]

It's not hard at all. It happens every single day all around us. Narratives about what did and did not happen, and what it means are simultaneously stitched together from both real and false events
every single day. It happens on the social, cultural, political, and religious level every single day in every single culture. The practice of both exaggeration and making stories up is so commonplace that independent fact checking is a much critical profession.

So when Daniel, during the Babylonian Captivity, spoke of the nation (Rome) which would
destroy the temple and all of Israel, and would kill even the Messiah (but who was dying for
his people) then how do you see that?
And Israiah and Ezekiel, during the same period, spoke of the Jews returning out of exile
A SECOND TIME when in fact they hadn't returned the first time, how do you see that?
These authors speak of a 'second return' not from Babylon but from all the world, nations
that were their 'graves' and settling once again in the land of Israel - how do you see that?

 

[PruePhillip]

JC was not a Hebrew messiah, according to the Hebrew he did not fullfil the messianic prophecies
Explanation! Confirmation bias

You know of course that Confirmation Bias works both ways....
Jacob said this future Hebew kingdom would last 'until' the Messiah comes, and this Messiah would be believed upon of the Gentiles.
So Israel lasted until Jesus, and much of the world sees Jesus as the Messiah.

And this Jesus shall come twice. First as the Jewish Redeemer then as the Jewish King who conquers the world.
The Jews generally neglect the Redeemer Messiah of their scripture - they want a worldly king
Zechariah states the Jews will mourn when they see that their coming King is the same lowly man they crucified.

 

[ppp]

So when Daniel, during the Babylonian Captivity, spoke of the nation (Rome) which would
destroy the temple and all of Israel, and would kill even the Messiah (but who was dying for
his people) then how do you see that?

Daniel didn't say "Rome". That is you exaggerating and make things up.

 

[PruePhillip]

Daniel didn't say "Rome". That is you exaggerating and make things up.

True, he didn't say Rome. Not sure if Rome even existed then.
Daniel mentioned other nations because they existed then, ie Greece.
But this nation of iron would come into the holy land like a 'flood' and destroy the temple.
The Greeks desecrated the temple, but Rome totally destroyed the temple, Jerusalem and Israel itself.
And these people would kill the Messiah.

So this is why I put (Rome) in brackets.

 

[PruePhillip]

It's not hard at all. It happens every single day all around us. Narratives about what did and did not happen, and what it means are simultaneously stitched together from both real and false events
every single day. It happens on the social, cultural, political, and religious level every single day in every single culture. The practice of both exaggeration and making stories up is so commonplace that independent fact checking is a much critical profession.

So we have this Messianic Redeemer, born of a woman, his birth would be a sign by its difference,
disbelieved of his brothers and sisters, preach the word, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, lowly,
rejected by Israel, despised, judged, jailed, crucified, resurrected, preached to the world, believed
by the Gentiles, kings shocked by his disfigurement - but finally the Gentiles time is 'fulfilled' and
the Jews, now in exile, will return to Israel and take it back with the sword - living in unwalled cities.

So if Jesus is some figment of some liar's imagination then WHO IS THE SCRIPTURE SPEAKING
OF ?

 

[ppp]

True, he didn't say Rome. Not sure if Rome even existed then.
Daniel mentioned other nations because they existed then, ie Greece.
But this nation of iron would come into the holy land like a 'flood' and destroy the temple.
The Greeks desecrated the temple, but Rome totally destroyed the temple, Jerusalem and Israel itself.
And these people would kill the Messiah.

So this is why I put (Rome) in brackets.

You still have not justified saying "Rome". In brackets, or presented in any other fashion.

 

[ppp]

So we have this Messianic Redeemer, born of a woman, his birth would be a sign by its difference,
disbelieved of his brothers and sisters, preach the word, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, lowly,
rejected by Israel, despised, judged, jailed, crucified, resurrected, preached to the world, believed
by the Gentiles, kings shocked by his disfigurement - but finally the Gentiles time is 'fulfilled' and
the Jews, now in exile, will return to Israel and take it back with the sword - living in unwalled cities.

So if Jesus is some figment of some liar's imagination then WHO IS THE SCRIPTURE SPEAKING
OF ?

No way of knowing. I am fine with working under the assumption that it is talking about some itinerant rabbi named Jesus. Or more likely, Joshua. Except for the miracles, the entire story could be true.

Well, there are some problems with the mundane parts as well, but they aren't particularly significant.

 

[Viker]

What if our universe was not the first one, but just one of many universes that has existed?

How would it affect your religious beliefs?

Would a string of universes be yet an other reason for people to not believe in a God or gods?

It wouldn't. It just would mean that something can't come from nothing. A creator doesn't have to magically make star dust from nowhere appear to get creative with the material already present.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Theory and experiments are two components of science.

There has been an ongoing debate about testing various multiverse theories. Testing Multiverse Theories: Approaching Practice (Chapter 8) - Multiverse Theories for one.

But no doubt this is a very hard to test set of theories.

You are aware of the difference between physics and theoretical physics?

 

[PruePhillip]

You still have not justified saying "Rome". In brackets, or presented in any other fashion.

Maybe it's the Turks, Crusaders or tomorrow maybe the Russians?
But whoever, they will kill the Messiah himself - and this is problematic to Jews who
believe their Messianic king will come from the line of David, and conquer the world.

As an aside, in Ezekiel it says the East Gate of Jerusalem will be closed because it's
the gate the great king entered through. When the Turks learned of this prophecy
they closed the East Gate and planted a cemetary there - thus helping to fulfill the
prophecy. Reminds me of Macbeth, really.

 

[ChristineM]

You know of course that Confirmation Bias works both ways....
Jacob said this future Hebew kingdom would last 'until' the Messiah comes, and this Messiah would be believed upon of the Gentiles.
So Israel lasted until Jesus, and much of the world sees Jesus as the Messiah.

And this Jesus shall come twice. First as the Jewish Redeemer then as the Jewish King who conquers the world.
The Jews generally neglect the Redeemer Messiah of their scripture - they want a worldly king
Zechariah states the Jews will mourn when they see that their coming King is the same lowly man they crucified.

The bible says that Jacob said, there is a difference. Not sure if you understand the concept of third person.

Again, not the Hebrew Messiah.

And it seems to me, and history, that Israel fell some several hundred years before jesus came on the scene.

Even if you could claim it still existed in bits and tribes, Rome conquered that area of the middle east some 60+ years before jesus was born.

 

[ppp]

Maybe it's the Turks, Crusaders or tomorrow maybe the Russians?

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

But whoever, they will kill the Messiah himself - and this is problematic to Jews who
believe their Messianic king will come from the line of David, and conquer the world.

You have not justified calling anyone a messiah. Your posts are just a series of unjustified assertions. You haven't justified your previous claim that Isaiah was talking about Rome. And now you seem to be skipping to yet another assertion.

 

[sun rise]

difference between physics and theoretical physics

Sigh.

Yes, I do know the difference between experiment and theory. And I do know that sometimes experimental evidence comes first and leads to new theories and sometimes theories lead to experiments that validate those theories. And I do know Popper.

 

[sun rise]

Sigh.

Yes, I do know the difference between experiment and theory. And I do know that sometimes experimental evidence comes first and leads to new theories and sometimes theories lead to experiments that validate those theories. And I do know Popper.

And I do know that a long time after string theory was first proposed and dismissed as untestable, there are some proposals to test some of the string theories. https://phys.org/news/2014-01-scientists-theory.html but I'm not aware of this having been followed up on.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And I do know that a long time after string theory was first proposed and dismissed as untestable, there are some proposals to test some of the string theories. https://phys.org/news/2014-01-scientists-theory.html but I'm not aware of this having been followed up on.

Well, you might be right. But if was published in 2014. Can you find more?

 

[PruePhillip]

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

You have not justified calling anyone a messiah. Your posts are just a series of unjustified assertions. You haven't justified your previous claim that Isaiah was talking about Rome. And now you seem to be skipping to yet another assertion.

Sort of lost the thread here --- too many threads for me.
If Jesus is not the Messianic Redeemer then we have a quandry - either someone else was this Redeemer
and its lost to history (?) or a suffering Redeemer is yet to come - and Israel will end with his figure. But
that doesn't make sense, particularly with the Jews losing Israel again.

 

[PruePhillip]

The bible says that Jacob said, there is a difference. Not sure if you understand the concept of third person.

Again, not the Hebrew Messiah.

And it seems to me, and history, that Israel fell some several hundred years before jesus came on the scene.

Even if you could claim it still existed in bits and tribes, Rome conquered that area of the middle east some 60+ years before jesus was born.

Israel was conquered, many times - Assyrians, Moabites, Egyptians, Greeks etc..
But Isaiah and Ezekiel only speak of TWO 'returns' to Israel - the first return would
be the one the Jews longed for - Babylon. The second return confused the Jews,
particularly those still in captivity - why speak of a SECOND return when here we
are exiled and in slavery the FIRST time?

Babylon exiled many Jews for 70 years.
Rome destroyed Israel for1800 years.

That the Jews remained ONE PEOPLE for all that time, and lamented the end
of the temple was remarkable to Gentile kings, philosophers and generals. But
in the end it actually happened, the Jews went back to Israel.

A bit like ancient Babylonians wailing the loss of Babylon, and then in the 20th
Century seizing Iraq, setting up their capital again, resurrecting their language
and become a regional power. Not going to happen. But it did with the Jews.

 

[gnostic]

Israel was conquered, many times - Assyrians, Moabites, Egyptians, Greeks etc..
But Isaiah and Ezekiel only speak of TWO 'returns' to Israel - the first return would
be the one the Jews longed for - Babylon. The second return confused the Jews,
particularly those still in captivity - why speak of a SECOND return when here we
are exiled and in slavery the FIRST time?

Babylon exiled many Jews for 70 years.
Rome destroyed Israel for1800 years.

Your history isn’t up to date.

You have forgotten that before the exile to Babylon in 587 BCE, some people from Judah had fled to Egypt as refugees, several times, first (earlier) from the Neo-Assyrians and then from the Neo-Babylonians.

They became permanent residents in Egypt, and lived for generations in Egypt.

More Jews came to Egypt after Jews returned to Israel from Babylon. Jews didn’t have to live in post-Babylon Israel or Judah, but they not only lived in Egypt, some chose to live in Syria during the Hellenistic period, like Seleucia and Antioch for instances. And not just headed west; some chose to migrate east, like Persia.

These same Jews were living in Alexandria in Hellenistic period, were bilingual and were responsible for translating the scriptures from Hebrew to Koine Greek, hence the earliest Septuagint.

My points are that Jews weren’t confined to living only in Judah or Judaea. Some chose to move out, and some were forced out as refugees.

Do you seriously think that Babylon was the only times they lived in exiles? You seriously need to update your knowledge of history.