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If you believe in free will, respond to these two objections

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Actually we can program machines to do things they were never programmed to. Research in A.I. and cognitive science (not that the two are distinct) began to rapidly shift from the algorithmic approach to artificial cognition to one which imitates biological mechanisms.

Yes, but it is done by assigning values in a decision tree. Probabilities, a percentage of likely-hood. Having an initial set of values programed in. A computer program can develop additional values based on additional information that is input into the system. Predict what is likely to occur based on those values and make a decision. However it is still determine by the initial programing and the additional information fed into the system.

The programmer arbitrarily assigns these initial values in the program. For humans, we are saying the process of evolution has set these initial values.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I suspect because people can imagine having acted differently, resulting in a different outcome they believe they could have acted differently in that moment in time.

However keep in mind they now have additional information. The results of that decision, which they didn't have at the time of deciding. So one can't return to the past with this additional information which would have resulted in a different decision.

It is their choices, their doing. Like a gear in an engine. If they hadn't done their doing/made their choices the result would be something other then what it was. They can imagine what would have happen if they hadn't been there but the reality is they were there. Like a gear causing another gear to turn. However something cause the first gear to turn. Without the first gear being there the second gear would not have turned.
But surely people understand the difference between a choice they could have made and a choice they are making now, choosing between alternatives that stand infront of them (ahead in time). Surely free will is seen in the choosing, not in what might have been? The past is done.

No just the opposite. Because of determinism we need to punish criminals so there is an external cause to prevent their future crimes.

If a criminal get away with murder, what would cause them not to try it again.

However with LFW there is no reason to punish them because they are just as likely to commit the crime again since they can act without any past punishment being an influence on their actions.

The only reason for such punishment is to make the victim feel better. Satisfy their sense of revenge since the punishment doesn't fix anything. Does nothing to improve anything.
But who is this "we" who controls the future by determining future causes that will prevent future crimes --this one who decides our fate? Sounds like free will to me.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, but it is done by assigning values in a decision tree. Probabilities, a percentage of likely-hood. Having an initial set of values programed in. A computer program can develop additional values based on additional information that is input into the system. Predict what is likely to occur based on those values and make a decision. However it is still determine by the initial programing and the additional information fed into the system.

The programmer arbitrarily assigns these initial values in the program. For humans, we are saying the process of evolution has set these initial values.

That's pretty much it. However, I don't know why you used the term "decision tree." Neural networks work by "artificial neurons" which usually involve an input layer, a hidden layer (necessary for even simpler operations, like XOR), and the output. Of course, how they are designed varies in numerous ways (backpropagation algorithms, unsupervised vs. supervised learning, fuzzy logic vs. crisp sets, etc.) However, the networks "learn" via the "weights" assigned to connections between neurons. The only integration between neural networks and "trees" I can think of offhand are spanning trees (graph theory), as neural networks are often used in optimization problems.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
That's pretty much it. However, I don't know why you used the term "decision tree." Neural networks work by "artificial neurons" which usually involve an input layer, a hidden layer (necessary for even simpler operations, like XOR), and the output. Of course, how they are designed varies in numerous ways (backpropagation algorithms, unsupervised vs. supervised learning, fuzzy logic vs. crisp sets, etc.) However, the networks "learn" via the "weights" assigned to connections between neurons. The only integration between neural networks and "trees" I can think of offhand are spanning trees (graph theory), as neural networks are often used in optimization problems.

A decision tree is a way to diagram the program so it's easier for a human to make sense of it. You're right, it's not part of the program, it's a conceptualization of the program.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
But surely people understand the difference between a choice they could have made and a choice they are making now, choosing between alternatives that stand infront of them (ahead in time). Surely free will is seen in the choosing, not in what might have been? The past is done.

I suspect not true for many people. People imagine something to be true and act as if it were true. I think a lot of people have not yet reached that level of self-awareness. Only because I see it all the time. People Imagine Obama to be a Muslim so they act as if what they imagined were true.

But who is this "we" who controls the future by determining future causes that will prevent future crimes --this one who decides our fate? Sounds like free will to me.

I'm trying to get away from using "we". :sad:

It could be a continuing product of evolution. Our thinking evolves. Successful thinking survives. Gears that keep the engine running.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
LFW argues for a type of freewill that is incompatible with determinism. That freewill is contra-causal. So there is nothing that causes one to make one choice over another choice. One is equally likely to choose between alternate actions. However a supernatural/metaphysical agent, the self, can make a random, uncaused selection.
I find the part in bold to be a big misrepresentation of the free-will argument. Of course people are predisposed towards making one choice or another; of course environmental factors can and will sway decisions. It is probably a pretty rare occurrence in which someone is precisely 50/50 for one option or the other.

A equal likelihood for both options is not what is required for freewill to be able to exist. The opportunity to choose between options, even if the likelihood of choosing one of them is only at 2% and the other is at 98%, is all that is required.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I find the part in bold to be a big misrepresentation of the free-will argument. Of course people are predisposed towards making one choice or another; of course environmental factors can and will sway decisions. It is probably a pretty rare occurrence in which someone is precisely 50/50 for one option or the other.

A equal likelihood for both options is not what is required for freewill to be able to exist. The opportunity to choose between options, even if the likelihood of choosing one of them is only at 2% and the other is at 98%, is all that is required.

That is all that is require for compatibilism as well. So what need is there for the concept of Libertarian Freewill?

I suspect most who argue for LFW don't fully understand the concept of compatibilism.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
The assumption is the reverse; making it anything other than just another facet of a deterministic process assigns it "magic" status. We know how deterministic decision-makers work, and it seems silly to assume that the brain doesn't fall under that label.
This has the same whiff as the argument that claims there must be a Creator because there is Creation. Our brains are deterministic because they are deterministic decision-makers? Not terribly convincing.

Polyhedral said:
But that would just be another decision, and so subject to the same argument... :D Besides, it's been demonstrated that concious awareness of decisions follows after the decision has been made. "Conciousness" seems to be more like modelling oneself as another; it does not appear to be true reflection, in the computing sense.
Wiki's down... protesting PIPA/SOPA and I just took a break to email my senators about it. :p Anyway, do you have a study regarding decisions being made pre-conciousness about the decision to be made? As someone who agonizes over decisions, I find that to be suspect, though I don't doubt that it may be true for certain reflexive sorts of decisions.

Polyhedral said:
Because quantum mechanics is &£$@! weird! :p
Agreed, and I'm sure there's weirder still out there.

Polyhedral said:
It is not a coherent concept, IMO.
That's what I'm asking you: What components would be needed to make it a coherent concept?

If you woke up tomorrow, and scientists were telling you that it has been shown that multiple different effects can be achieved from a singular set of causes, that would, at the very least, necessitate a change in your arguments against freewill.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Lets put it this way.

What is the argument against compatibilism?
If there is none then we can all happily accept being compatibilists... :clap
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
This has the same whiff as the argument that claims there must be a Creator because there is Creation. Our brains are deterministic because they are deterministic decision-makers? Not terribly convincing.
They're deterministic because we can't find anything (non-quantum) in the universe that isn't.

Wiki's down... protesting PIPA/SOPA and I just took a break to email my senators about it. :p Anyway, do you have a study regarding decisions being made pre-conciousness about the decision to be made? As someone who agonizes over decisions, I find that to be suspect, though I don't doubt that it may be true for certain reflexive sorts of decisions.
Unfortunately, I can't find any, since I don't really know what I'm searching for. It also wasn't a very long time, so you probably wouldn't notice. IIRC, what the experiment did was stick people in an MRI, have them make a trivial decision, and the researchers found that their brains lit up consistently with their choice a few fractions of a second before they realized they'd chosen.

That's what I'm asking you: What components would be needed to make it a coherent concept?
It can't be made a coherent concept without quantum behaviour.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A decision tree is a way to diagram the program so it's easier for a human to make sense of it. You're right, it's not part of the program, it's a conceptualization of the program.
I don't understand. A decision tree is a conceptual representation of classical programs, but neural networks were designed specifically to model biological neural networks and the typical logic and architecture of other programs fail when it comes to neural networks. They relie on integrated "neurons" in a highly interconnected network with very limited heirarchy (unlike most programming which involves nested logical loops, iterations, and branching structures). The whole point of neural networks is that they learn by a fairly simple architecture but a highly connected network imitating the massive paralellism of the brain. Thre isn't a logical tree structure which adequately captures the structure of the learning programs/machines because they don't use classical computational logic. They rearrange themselves, which is the whole point, and which makes typical tree diagrams pretty useless.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Let's ignore quantam mechanics for the moment. In what sense is physics (as it is currently understood) explain the molecular organization of neural activity?

Rather than just repeat myself, I'll try to give a concise but thorough enough account of the research behind my assertion that even without getting into quantam mechanics physical laws do not uniquely determine states of the brain.

From Davies' paper in Re-Emergence of Emergence (Oxford University Press, 2006):
"Recent work by Max Bennett (Bennett and Barden, 2001) in Australia has determined that neurons continually put out little tendrils that can link up with others and effectively rewire the brain on a time scale of twenty minutes! This seems to serve the function of adapting the neuro-circuitry to operate more effectively in the light of various mental experiences (e.g. learning to play a video game). To the physicist this looks deeply puzzling. How can a higher-level phenomenon like ‘experience’, which is also a global concept, have causal control over microscopic regions at the sub-neuronal level? The tendrils will be pushed and pulled by local forces (presumably good old electromagnetic ones). So how does a force at a point in space (the end of a tendril) ‘know about’, say, the thrill of a game?"

Another huge factor is the massive dynamical synchonization of neural activity. An introductory book on a dynamical systems approach to neural activity may be found here: Dynamical Systems in Neuroscience: The Geometry of Excitability and Bursting. It does not assume a familiarity with dynamical systems or too much in the way of neuroscience, but a knowledge of multivariate calculus, basic chemistry, and some basic familiarity with neurophysiology is essential. The last chapter is devoted to synchonization, which is also the subject of the book Emergence of dynamical order: synchronization phenomena in complex systems. The final chapter examines neural networks in particular:
"..synchronization links together processes in distant parts of the brain. According to a popular hypothesis, development of transient synchronous clusters in neural networks spanning the whole brain is responsible for the appearence of distinct mental states which make up the flow of human consciousness.
When large-scale synchronization of neuronal processes is discussed, one should avoid the mistake of assuming that it merely results from the synchonization of states of individual neurons. If this were the case, the whole brain or large parts would have behaved just like a single neuron....We show that interaction between networks can lead to mutual synchronization of their activity patterns and to spontaneous seperation of the enseble into coherent network clusters."

It is this complexity which allows a non-reductionist account of neural activity. From Scott's paper in Evolution and Emergence (Oxford University Press, 2007):

"Under [strong downward causation], it is supposed that upper-level phenomena can act as efficient causal agents in the dynamics of lower levels. In other words, upper-level organisms can modify the physical and chemical laws governing their molecular constituents."

The complexity of neurons is due to their networking capacity which allows emergent and irreducible structures: "In network-level models, identical neurons are interconnected to exhibit emergent system functions...In the framework of neural complex systems, the microscopic level of interacting neurons is distinguished from the macroscopic level of global patterns produced as cell assemblies by self-organization...Large and complex real-world systems, which include neurons and neural populations, are noisy, nearly infinite-dimensional, non-stationary and non-autonomous...The discovery that brain dynamics operates in chaotic domains has profound implications for the study of higher brain function. A chaotic system has the capacity to create novel and unexpeted patterns of activity."
-from Klaus Symmetry and Complexity (World Scientific Publishing Co., 2005).

This is not to say that all or even most neuroscients agree that the complexity of neural activity make it ontologically indeterminant rather than epistemically indeterminant, but "baseline state indeterminacy [of the brain] can br ontological, that is, the very structure of the brain dictates indeterministic states, independently of any observation..." -from Gur, Contreraras, and, Gur's paper in Indeterminacy: The Mapped, the Navigable, and the Uncharted (MIT press, 2009).



Well they wouldn't be laws we fully understand. But then, that's nothing new. However, research into dynamical systems especially that of the brain reveals a great deal of evidence against 1) the type of causation argued in this thread and 2) reductionist physics:

"The attractor determines the response, not the particular stimulus. Unlike the view proposed by stimulus-response reflex determinism, the dynamics give no linear chain of cause and effect from stimulus to response that can lead to the necessity of environmental determinism." from Freeman's paper in Does Consciousness Cause Behavior? (MIT press, 2006). He concludes by noting the inability of neurscientists to account for the global activity of neural networks by way of locality or reductionist physical laws.


You posted the above, but it still doesn't to me at least answer your "I do not believe that our decisions are completely determined by the physical laws of the universe."

If something in this universe doesn't obey the "physical laws of the universe" then they are supernatural.

The brain works because of chemical electrical singals which arew govern by the laws of the universe.

of course you can't ignore QM either, although I know you said for the moment.


Okay with what you said there and the comment you made here.

"LegionOnomaMoi

"That depends on how you define it. I do not believe that our decisions are completely determined by the physical laws of the universe."


So far everything we know is bound by the physical laws of the universe.

If what your saying were true, were you making decsions before the big bang?

It doesn't take matter for you to make a decision?

Could you make decisions if you were put in orbit without a space suit?

If these decisions aren't coming from your physical brain, where are they coming from?

If I stopped the electrical activity of your brain could you make a decision still?

Ho does the Heisenberg uncertainty principle fit into your hypothesis?

I am curious for you to answer those questions if you could?

Thanks, I have to ponder of course what you posted.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I find the part in bold to be a big misrepresentation of the free-will argument. Of course people are predisposed towards making one choice or another; of course environmental factors can and will sway decisions. It is probably a pretty rare occurrence in which someone is precisely 50/50 for one option or the other.

A equal likelihood for both options is not what is required for freewill to be able to exist. The opportunity to choose between options, even if the likelihood of choosing one of them is only at 2% and the other is at 98%, is all that is required.
We don't even have the capacity to gauge things to that level. We likely don't see a 48 to 52 spit any better than a 2 to 98 split. That is one thing I feel helps us to have free will because, to use technical terms, we are retarded. :) A computer wouldn't have a choice especially if it is programmed to pick the highest percentage.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
Everyone knows that humans make decisions; that is a red herring in the debate on free will. The only real controversy here is Libertarian free will.

"Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All “free will theists” hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one’s nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise."

Do you differentiate between caused and influenced? If I plan to go running and there is a tornado warning and lightning storms outside, did the storms influence my decision to not run or would they be a direct cause that forced me to not run?

I ask because I see influences all the time - my natural desires and the curves of a model may influence my decision to look at pornography - but no one or no thing forced me to turn on the computer, click the mouse and type in the search.

I think making a distinction between caused (as in forced or determined) and influenced (as in persuade or favor) when it comes to our actions and our 'free will' is crucial.

The objections are (quotes are from theopedia.com):

"\1) Causality —If causes are understood as conditions prior to an effect that guarantee an effect, and all events have causes, then it follows that all events were preceded by conditions that guaranteed those events. But this is the same as saying all events are determined. Since the choices of humans are events, it follows that the choices of humans are determined.

I don't think I fully understand. I will try to paraphrase and respond to my own paraphrase so please feel free to correct me as much as it takes:

event = a result, like me wrecking my car
conditions = things that caused my car to wreck, like the whiskey I drank and the deer in the middle of the road and the rain on the road that caused me to loose control
causes = (this is where I get confused) that which caused me to drink the whiskey and that which caused the deer to be standing in the road?

So the argument would go that wrecking my car was pre-determined because it was pre-determined that I would drink the whiskey and drive down the road where the deer would be standing on the night that it would rain because there were causes that made each of those conditions result in the event of me wrecking my car?

I think I butchered it.

Basically, as I understand it, if our hand is forced in any way (like how the rules of gravity force us to remain rooted to the Earth) through pre-determination, then we do not have free will? Is that right? So if it is pre-determined that I will wreck my car that night, I am forced to go out driving that night and I cannot choose to stay home?

\2) Responsibility —Rather than salvage human responsibility, some maintain that libertarian freedom destroys it. If our choices have no causes, in what sense are they our choices? Is it any more agreeable to reason to hold humans responsible for choices they didn’t cause than to hold them responsible for choices that were caused and thus determined?"

Again, I think this goes to the whole influence/cause issue. My wife cheating on me may have influenced me to drive to the bar and drink the whiskey in the above example, but did it force me to? The answer is no - I think by using the word cause, you are trying to imply force or necessitation - meaning that if my wife cheated on me, I HAVE to go to the bar and drink the whiskey and wreck my car and I CANNOT choose to stay home or go somewhere else or have a Mountain Dew to drink.

I don't believe that causes force us into anything - there are influences - but these influences do not limit our choices. The influence may unevenly weigh our options, but this is in no way forcing - forcing implies that we don't have a choice.

"In compatibilism, free will is affected by human nature and man will never choose contrary to his nature and desires. Man will always do what he desires most at any particular moment - even when there are competing desires."

I think people choose against the nature and desire all the time. I think this may go back to the whole influence issue I brought up above?

I think if we can be on the same page about the whole influence/cause/force thing we can move on to my butchering of your two issues of causality and responsibility.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
The thing is free will seems to be an illusion from how the brain physically works as they look deeper into how the brain works.

But, there are two things here, the brains neurons making the decisions before were conciously aware of them in the first place and choices we make when were concious of those choices after the brain neurons fire, we then call free will.

What I don't get is the

"I do not believe that our decisions are completely determined by the physical laws of the universe."

The human brain and brains in general are biological and for one require water, electrical current and chemistry, all governed by the physical laws of nature, even if we don't understand how it all works completely, it still needs energy and space and time. We also make decisions based on our senses.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The thing is free will seems to be an illusion from how the brain physically works as they look deeper into how the brain works.

But, there are two things here, the brains neurons making the decisions before were conciously aware of them in the first place and choices we make when were concious of those choices after the brain neurons fire, we then call free will.

What I don't get is the

"I do not believe that our decisions are completely determined by the physical laws of the universe."

The human brain and brains in general are biological and for one require water, electrical current and chemistry, all governed by the physical laws of nature, even if we don't understand how it all works completely, it still needs energy and space and time. We also make decisions based on our senses.
Free will is our ability to think outside the box which few animals are able to really do. If we couldn't make that leap our environment would determine our fate without us having a choice. Which is why cognition is such a fascinating subject that we are even able to do what we do. BTW cognition and self is an illusion too yet here we are perceiving and analyzing things, silly us.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I don't understand. A decision tree is a conceptual representation of classical programs, but neural networks were designed specifically to model biological neural networks and the typical logic and architecture of other programs fail when it comes to neural networks. They relie on integrated "neurons" in a highly interconnected network with very limited heirarchy (unlike most programming which involves nested logical loops, iterations, and branching structures). The whole point of neural networks is that they learn by a fairly simple architecture but a highly connected network imitating the massive paralellism of the brain. Thre isn't a logical tree structure which adequately captures the structure of the learning programs/machines because they don't use classical computational logic. They rearrange themselves, which is the whole point, and which makes typical tree diagrams pretty useless.

This is how I've seen initial algorithms for an expert system being conceptualized and developed. I don't know that they were necessary however such trees were used to explain the to me the rest of what I mentioned.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Gender is a difference which may have caused variance.



I suspect it was because God setup the conditions so they would act exactly as they did.



Yes, by choice. It a choice their brain makes to receive whatever pleasure it gets from the action. I think the mistake is in thinking they could have chosen other behavior then they did.



We often manipulate people by motivating them through their desires. They are free to choose to act according to those desires.

If God had put up an impassible barrier around the Tree of Knowledge then Adam and Eve would not have been free to act on those desires.

I get the impression Genesis is a mystery to you.

Freewill is affirmed by choice?
Or chemistry?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I get the impression Genesis is a mystery to you.

I get the impression that Genesis is a mystery to everyone. Doesn't stop people from making up explanations for it though.

Freewill is affirmed by choice?
Or chemistry?

Yes an individual makes a choice. The physical mechanics of the process is electrochemical.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Free will is our ability to think outside the box which few animals are able to really do. If we couldn't make that leap our environment would determine our fate without us having a choice. Which is why cognition is such a fascinating subject that we are even able to do what we do. BTW cognition and self is an illusion too yet here we are perceiving and analyzing things, silly us.

The ability to imagine things that don't exist? Like the existence of having alternate choices...

The human mind has the ability to create a virtual reality. I know know if you want to call that illusion or not but these alternate futures resulting from these alternate choices people imagine they have only exist in the virtual reality of the mind.

Cognition is the brain convincing itself that it knows something.

The brain creates a virtual reality and can manipulate that reality to whatever degree it's individual programming allows. Some people are more creative then others.

The self is the brain, however I suspect the brain creates a self-image which exists in it's virtual reality that it identifies with. The brain says this image is me. But it is actually just the brain.

The brain, not being aware of all the things, desires/stimulation which causes it to act imagines the virtual "self" to be able to act independent of these things.

Now the brain can imagine the self being in alternate futures. Now here's the fun part. What the brain imagines can cause a want or desire. That want causes to brain to imagine the actions necessary to fulfill the desire. So this becomes the desire which causes action. So this mean the virtual future imagined by the brain into actuality, however it does cause the action by the individual which creates the actual future.

That's how we advance. We imagine a better situation then the one we currently or in so that imagined reality causes us to act. The brain depends on memories to create it's virtual reality. Since the the virtual reality on the is not dependent on physical laws it can manipulate these memories as it desires. Sometimes creating an imagined future it desires and also believes might be possible if it were to act in a certain way. So the brain act as it thinks is necessary to bring about that future. And the future may turn out to be very close to what it imagined. However the virtual reality imagined is not actuality.
 
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