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If you believe in free will, respond to these two objections

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
We are under religious debates.

Are you now implying that all of creation is one chemical reaction following another?

God is lacking freewill?....God in spirit....can't help Himself?

And unable to bestow said will, unto you?

From a religious view, I don't think anyone knows about God's "freewill" to where assertions can be made.

However for humans, the religious problem is the assumption that man can choose between good and evil. If man really has no choice, as determinism assumes, then God cannot hold man accountable for his actions.

Determinism invalidates Christian theology.

Determinism does not invalidate freewill. It only really states that our actions are determined by prior events. There are some fundamental forces of the universe that can explain sufficiently that universe as it currently exists that allow a deterministic model of the universe. As far as I know we can't (yet) explain the cause of these forces. However the deterministic model works well enough to explain the universe once these forces are in place.

I suppose what is meant by freewill in a religious sense is the ability to choose between good and evil.

Determinism says this concept of freewill doesn't exist. It's something we imagine to exist but doesn't.

Problem is that is is really hard to prove that a person at the moment of decision could have actually made a choice other then the one they made.

You'd have to take two clones, makes sure their environmental stimulation was exactly the same, down to the last detail, and see if they ever made different decisions.

If a person grows up in an environment were rape is acceptable, encourage, glorified. Do you think that is going to affect their personal concept of morals. What if they are never expose to any other kind of thinking. Do you think they could out of the blue, choose to see rape as immoral?
 
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shawn001

Well-Known Member
Memory? Self-awareness doesn't allow time travel.

Self-awareness doesn't allow time travel.

Unless I missed a different point here.

Theoritacally, Self-awareness does allow for time travel. At least forward in time, depending on how fast you could go.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
I've written several posts which are part of this thread. You can read them. If, after doing so, you find that they don't answer your question, I'd be more than happy to expand on and/or clarify what I've said.


If you could summerize it a bit so I don't have to spend a ton of time looking back through all the posts thast would be great.

You get a chance to check out the videos by any chance?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I could also attack this from an Eastern philosophy perspective as well:

"The course of time is really, very much like the course of a ship in the ocean. Because here's the ship you see, and it leaves behind it, a wake. And the wake fades out and that tells us where the ship has been in just the same way the past, and our memory of the past, tells us what we have done. But as we go back into the past, and we go back and back to pre-history and we use all kinds of instruments and scientific method for detecting what happened, we eventually reach a point where all record of the past fades away in just the same way as the wake of the ship. ... THE WAKE DOESN'T DRIVE THE SHIP ANYMORE THAN THE TAIL WAGS THE DOG."
-- Alan Watts

Alan Watts is right. The wake doesn't drive the ship. Forces like wind, waves, gravity, position of the sail/rudder do. The ship causes the wake so it can tell us where the ship has been. It tells us nothing about what caused the ship to get where it is.


"If*I define myself as the whole field of events, we'll say the "organism-environment field" which is the real me, then all the things that happen to me, may be called "my doing."
-- Alan Watts
Sure, expand it further to include the universe. Then what happens to me is the doing of the universe. If I to define the self as the entire universe then it is my doing. Doesn't make my in-deterministic.

And to expand on my previous Western analytical refutation, heres my argument in syllogistic form.

P1: There exists things not determined by an external agent or cause.
P2: If it is not determined by anything else but itself, it is self-determined.
P3: If it is self-determined, it is free.

.

Kind of easy if you choose to define the self as inclusive of anything that causes the self to exist. Here's a "cause" over here, but I'll just include is as part of myself so I can fit the definition of self-determined.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
From a religious view, I don't think anyone knows about God's "freewill" to where assertions can be made.

However for humans, the religious problem is the assumption that man can choose between good and evil. If man really has no choice, as determinism assumes, then God cannot hold man accountable for his actions.

Determinism invalidates Christian theology.

Determinism does not invalidate freewill. It only really states that our actions are determined by prior events. There are some fundamental forces of the universe that can explain sufficiently that universe as it currently exists that allow a deterministic model of the universe. As far as I know we can't (yet) explain the cause of these forces. However the deterministic model works well enough to explain the universe once these forces are in place.

I suppose what is meant by freewill in a religious sense is the ability to choose between good and evil.

Determinism says this concept of freewill doesn't exist. It's something we imagine to exist but doesn't.

Problem is that is is really hard to prove that a person at the moment of decision could have actually made a choice other then the one they made.

You'd have to take two clones, makes sure their environmental stimulation was exactly the same, down to the last detail, and see if they ever made different decisions.

If a person grows up in an environment were rape is acceptable, encourage, glorified. Do you think that is going to affect their personal concept of morals. What if they are never expose to any other kind of thinking. Do you think they could out of the blue, choose to see rape as immoral?

Clones did you say?
Such as the twin sister of Adam given to him for a bride?
Eve had no navel. She was cloned from Adam's rib.
Identical environment?....like the Garden?

But did they partake of the knowledge for the same cause?
Did they do so freely?...or did that clever snake twist someone's arm?

Just a side note.....not really wanting to digress to your analogy....
Ape's make a practice of rape.
By choice?

Man as a species ......Day Six.
Day Seven...no more will be created.
THEN Chapter Two.... a story of manipulation.

A story of freewill?
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
(I address your arguments below, so you can skip down if you wish. What follows is background which I think is quite important).
There's more to the argument because defining causality is not an easy task, and it has become MORE difficult in the past century. When Aristotle first wrote about the issue of fatalism using the example of of a sea-battle the next day, concepts like fatalism, determinism, causation, were all very much linked. This is no longer the case. Now, for example, determinism is being increasinlgy replaced by the concept of supervienence. Also, as Paul Humphrey's notes: "Until quite recently, it was almost universally held that causation must be deterministic, in that any cause is sufficient to bring about its effect. This deterministic dogma has crumbled, but the influence of the prejudices behind it is still strong and underpins many sufficiency accounts." Now there are a plethora of accounts of indeterministic causation, even overdeterministic causation.

A rather difficult issue in addressing these problems is that while all of science, and even the most formal language of its expression (mathematics) rests to some extent on logic and philosophy, concepts such as causation and determinism are far less formal and much more philosophical in nature, and therefore more difficult to address. That is, while I can mathematically represent an epistemically nondeterministic system, I cannot do so with one that is ontologically nondeterministic. Additionally, what causation means is a philosophical issue with different answers.

That said, let me try to address your point quoted above.

What is meant by "causation?" Simply put, an event, or the summation of a vast number of particles obeying physical laws, constitutes the state of a system (or the universe), at time Tzero. At time T1, the state of the system has changed, in that the particles are no longer arranged exactly as they were at time Tzero. This is caused completely by the physical laws which govern the particles, such that no other arrangement at time T1 would have been possible. We might not now or ever be capable of determining the state of the system at T1 given our knowledge of Tzero, but causation does not require us to.

However, in the example I used above, it is not necessarily the case that given the state at Tzero, there is a unique state T1 which necessarily results from Tzero. This is because the state following Tzero is not subject only to the physical laws governing the totality of the paticles of the system. Rather, in the specific example of neurons, emergent organization results from the interaction of particles in ways that are influenced by, but do not depend on, physical laws. Moreover, this interaction is nonreducible to the components (the neurons). Finally, it is not clear that how one can say the state following Tzero is uniquely caused by anything.

What, after all, is the cause? The system is constrained by physical laws. There are not an infinite number of ways in which the neurons could organize, alter, rearrange, etc. But neither do the physical laws governing them cause the state T1, nor do the neurons themselves. Nor is there a unique T1 which must result given Tzero. So in order to retain a notion of causation, all we can say is that the state at Tzero was followed by the state at T1, understanding T1 as T1a which could have been T1b, T1c, or a number of other states given Tzero. Causation then becomes trivial.

Most importantly, causation as described above does not limit free will because it does not uniquely determine future states of the brain given prior states.



The problem with the two points in your original post is that they conflate two seperate conceptual representations of causation. The first problem is the issue of causal determinism, which I addressed (among other places) above. The second is the ancient argument about all events having causes (which is one of the logical proofs of god). So let me address the second problem using the same example as above.

We go back to the state of the brain at Tzero. At T1, the state has changed in a manner not causally determined by the state at Tzero. However, this is not the same as saying that T1 has no causes. Rather, certain things influence, constrain, and limit the system so that the particular T1 the brain arrives at is one of a finite number of states. To make this less abstract, let me go back to an example I used earlier.

I'm walking along the street and find a wallet filled with hundred dollar bills and an ID. I realize that I can keep the money, or return it. Now, it cannot be said that there are no causes behind either decision. Lots of events influence my decision at this moment. However, if the first argument I outlined above is accurate (or certain other arguments against ontological causal determinism are), then the decision I make is not guarenteed by the state of my brain immediately prior to that decision.

Therefore, the decision I make is not guaranteed (addressing your first problem), but it is quite connected to the event(s) which preceeded it (addressing problem two).
If the state of your brain represents your mind, you, and it does not determine your decision, then you do not determine your decision; you merely "limit, influence, constrain" it to a finite number of possibilities and then... what? An element of randomness or probability is ultimately responsible? How is this an argument in your favor?
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
By the way Legion I do appreciate your persistence and your willingness to elaborate in response to my incessant questioning. You are one of the most interesting free will advocates I've encountered (as a matter of fact most of them cannot get past the red herring I mentioned in the original post). At any rate I've enjoyed our debate so far, but I still think your position has no hope.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the state of your brain represents your mind, you, and it does not determine your decision

It is not that the state of my brain/mind ("me" as it were) does not determine my decision. Rather:
1)The totality of particles in the unvierse at time Tzero, including those in my brain, do not uniquely determine the state of my brain at time T1 by virtue of physical laws. That is, given the nonreducible nature of the "mind," my "decision" (represented by a particular arrangement of particles in my brain) is a pattern of neuronal structure which has emerged through self-organization which cannot be caused merely by the physical laws governing each individual unit. The emergent structure is not simply the product of its respective parts. The systems components exhibit self-organization by unified action over and above the behavior of each individual component. Thus, as physical laws act locally on the components, the emergent structure is not completely determined by physical laws.
2) That "emergent structure" is my mind, my choice, volition, etc. "Mind" is the self-organization of neurons and neural firing in ways that are not determined by the laws of physics.

By the way Legion I do appreciate your persistence and your willingness to elaborate in response to my incessant questioning.
I'm grateful for the opportunity, and for your informed and challenging responses.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
The totality of particles in the unvierse at time Tzero, including those in my brain, do not uniquely determine the state of my brain at time T1 by virtue of physical laws.
If we, for simplicity's sake, take "particles" to mean, macromolecules, then yes, they do. The quantum version is slightly trickier, but it does produce a "unique" outcome, it's just slightly wibbly. ;)

That is, given the nonreducible nature of the "mind," my "decision" (represented by a particular arrangement of particles in my brain) is a pattern of neuronal structure which has emerged through self-organization which cannot be caused merely by the physical laws governing each individual unit.
Self-organisation is caused by the reductionist physical laws governing each unit. It must be, otherwise they wouldn't be very good laws, would they? ;)
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
It is not that the state of my brain/mind ("me" as it were) does not determine my decision. Rather:
1)The totality of particles in the unvierse at time Tzero, including those in my brain, do not uniquely determine the state of my brain at time T1 by virtue of physical laws. That is, given the nonreducible nature of the "mind," my "decision" (represented by a particular arrangement of particles in my brain) is a pattern of neuronal structure which has emerged through self-organization which cannot be caused merely by the physical laws governing each individual unit. The emergent structure is not simply the product of its respective parts. The systems components exhibit self-organization by unified action over and above the behavior of each individual component. Thus, as physical laws act locally on the components, the emergent structure is not completely determined by physical laws.
2) That "emergent structure" is my mind, my choice, volition, etc. "Mind" is the self-organization of neurons and neural firing in ways that are not determined by the laws of physics.


I'm grateful for the opportunity, and for your informed and challenging responses.

Okay with what you said there and the comment you made here.

"LegionOnomaMoi

"That depends on how you define it. I do not believe that our decisions are completely determined by the physical laws of the universe."


So far everything we know is bound by the physical laws of the universe.

If what your saying were true, were you making decsions before the big bang?

It doesn't take matter for you to make a decision?

Could you make decisions if you were put in orbit without a space suit?

If these decisions aren't coming from your physical brain, where are they coming from?

If I stopped the electrical activity of your brain could you make a decisions still?

Ho does the Heisenberg uncertainty principle fit into your hypothesis?
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Just for the info, this is from the bigthink

Steven Pinker on Free Will

There's no such thing as free will in the sense of a ghost in the machine; our behavior is the product of physical processes in the brain rather than some mysterious soul, says Pinker.

[youtube]VQxJi0COTBo[/youtube]
Steven Pinker on Free Will - YouTube



Check out the rest of Steven Pinker's interview at

Steven Pinker is Harvard College Professor and Johnstone Family Professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University. Until 2003, he taught in the Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences at MIT. He conducts research on language and cognition, writes for publications such as the New York Times, Time, and The New Republic, and is the author of seven books, including The Language Instinct, How the Mind Works, Words and Rules, The Blank Slate, and most recently, The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window into Human Nature. Pinker was named one of Time magazine’s 100 most influential people in the world in 2004. He was born in Montreal, Canada and educated at McGill University and Harvard.

Steven Pinker | Professor of Psychology, Harvard University | Big Think
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If we, for simplicity's sake, take "particles" to mean, macromolecules, then yes, they do. The quantum version is slightly trickier, but it does produce a "unique" outcome, it's just slightly wibbly. ;)

Let's ignore quantam mechanics for the moment. In what sense is physics (as it is currently understood) explain the molecular organization of neural activity?

Rather than just repeat myself, I'll try to give a concise but thorough enough account of the research behind my assertion that even without getting into quantam mechanics physical laws do not uniquely determine states of the brain.

From Davies' paper in Re-Emergence of Emergence (Oxford University Press, 2006):
"Recent work by Max Bennett (Bennett and Barden, 2001) in Australia has determined that neurons continually put out little tendrils that can link up with others and effectively rewire the brain on a time scale of twenty minutes! This seems to serve the function of adapting the neuro-circuitry to operate more effectively in the light of various mental experiences (e.g. learning to play a video game). To the physicist this looks deeply puzzling. How can a higher-level phenomenon like ‘experience’, which is also a global concept, have causal control over microscopic regions at the sub-neuronal level? The tendrils will be pushed and pulled by local forces (presumably good old electromagnetic ones). So how does a force at a point in space (the end of a tendril) ‘know about’, say, the thrill of a game?"

Another huge factor is the massive dynamical synchonization of neural activity. An introductory book on a dynamical systems approach to neural activity may be found here: Dynamical Systems in Neuroscience: The Geometry of Excitability and Bursting. It does not assume a familiarity with dynamical systems or too much in the way of neuroscience, but a knowledge of multivariate calculus, basic chemistry, and some basic familiarity with neurophysiology is essential. The last chapter is devoted to synchonization, which is also the subject of the book Emergence of dynamical order: synchronization phenomena in complex systems. The final chapter examines neural networks in particular:
"..synchronization links together processes in distant parts of the brain. According to a popular hypothesis, development of transient synchronous clusters in neural networks spanning the whole brain is responsible for the appearence of distinct mental states which make up the flow of human consciousness.
When large-scale synchronization of neuronal processes is discussed, one should avoid the mistake of assuming that it merely results from the synchonization of states of individual neurons. If this were the case, the whole brain or large parts would have behaved just like a single neuron....We show that interaction between networks can lead to mutual synchronization of their activity patterns and to spontaneous seperation of the enseble into coherent network clusters."

It is this complexity which allows a non-reductionist account of neural activity. From Scott's paper in Evolution and Emergence (Oxford University Press, 2007):

"Under [strong downward causation], it is supposed that upper-level phenomena can act as efficient causal agents in the dynamics of lower levels. In other words, upper-level organisms can modify the physical and chemical laws governing their molecular constituents."

The complexity of neurons is due to their networking capacity which allows emergent and irreducible structures: "In network-level models, identical neurons are interconnected to exhibit emergent system functions...In the framework of neural complex systems, the microscopic level of interacting neurons is distinguished from the macroscopic level of global patterns produced as cell assemblies by self-organization...Large and complex real-world systems, which include neurons and neural populations, are noisy, nearly infinite-dimensional, non-stationary and non-autonomous...The discovery that brain dynamics operates in chaotic domains has profound implications for the study of higher brain function. A chaotic system has the capacity to create novel and unexpeted patterns of activity."
-from Klaus Symmetry and Complexity (World Scientific Publishing Co., 2005).

This is not to say that all or even most neuroscients agree that the complexity of neural activity make it ontologically indeterminant rather than epistemically indeterminant, but "baseline state indeterminacy [of the brain] can br ontological, that is, the very structure of the brain dictates indeterministic states, independently of any observation..." -from Gur, Contreraras, and, Gur's paper in Indeterminacy: The Mapped, the Navigable, and the Uncharted (MIT press, 2009).

Self-organisation is caused by the reductionist physical laws governing each unit. It must be, otherwise they wouldn't be very good laws, would they? ;)

Well they wouldn't be laws we fully understand. But then, that's nothing new. However, research into dynamical systems especially that of the brain reveals a great deal of evidence against 1) the type of causation argued in this thread and 2) reductionist physics:

"The attractor determines the response, not the particular stimulus. Unlike the view proposed by stimulus-response reflex determinism, the dynamics give no linear chain of cause and effect from stimulus to response that can lead to the necessity of environmental determinism." from Freeman's paper in Does Consciousness Cause Behavior? (MIT press, 2006). He concludes by noting the inability of neurscientists to account for the global activity of neural networks by way of locality or reductionist physical laws.
 
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not nom

Well-Known Member
How can a higher-level phenomenon like ‘experience’, which is also a global concept, have causal control over microscopic regions at the sub-neuronal level? The tendrils will be pushed and pulled by local forces (presumably good old electromagnetic ones). So how does a force at a point in space (the end of a tendril) ‘know about’, say, the thrill of a game?"

how does a stone know of the concept of "land slide"? :facepalm:
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
how does a stone know of the concept of "land slide"? :facepalm:
umm... what? The stone isn't reactive. I think you may have missed the point. An individual responds to a stimulus in a way that causes that individual's brain to change. The reason I quoted that passage is because a global effect seems to result in local changes which "can't" be the result of the global effect. It's the equivalent of the stone seeing other stones rolling down the hill and then deciding to do so as well.
 

not nom

Well-Known Member
umm... what? The stone isn't reactive.

what, exactly, does that mean? that it does not react to stimulus? BS.

I think you may have missed the point. An individual responds to a stimulus in a way that causes that individual's brain to change.

I didn't miss that at all, but that is entirely besides MY point.

The reason I quoted that passage is because a global effect seems to result in local changes which "can't" be the result of the global effect.

the global effect means those local changes have already taken place, seeing how it's made up of them. that was my point.

It's the equivalent of the stone seeing other stones rolling down the hill and then deciding to do so as well.

stones do that. it's just that they "see" by inertia and being bumped into. same difference.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
the global effect means those local changes have already taken place, seeing how it's made up of them. that was my point.
Yes, and the author's point, whom I quoted, was that this can't be the case. The local changes haven't already taken place. Rather, the global effect causes local changes globally, which is why Davies states "To the physicist this looks deeply puzzling."

And I expanded on this point in the rest of my post, but you signled out that one bit. Why? The rest also deals with local effects uncaused by physical laws but by global network structure and behavior.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Memory? Self-awareness doesn't allow time travel.
Not sure where time travel was implied.

Falvlun said:
If the person is the ultimate cause for his decisions, then that means that that person has free will.
sure, but nobody is, so nobody has... that was easy.
Well, unfortunately for you then, that is the conclusion that arguments against free-will boil down to-- our will is the ultimate cause of our actions.
 
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