• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If you believe in free will, respond to these two objections

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
So either the child caused the idea to pop into her brain, in which case the causality argument applies, or it just randomly popped in there, in which case she is not responsible for it.
I don't think you get it.
Sleeping lions is a bit like musical statues but lying down. The girl was lying down on the floor showing the kids how to play dead, and a random kid jumped on her arm and broke it.
If that wasn't free will on the child's side I don't know what is.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
You can, given sufficient information and intelligence. Unfortunately, this is hard to demonstrate, because even computer-assisted humans don't.

I suggest if it cannot be demonstrated then it isn't true, but is one of those absurd philosophical arguments that has no place in reality.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I cause MY decisions and only mine. What I do influences others. I have free will to do anything have the ability to do, so does everyone else.

Many people are not aware of the sub-conscious causes for their decisions. The decision seems to start with them.

They experience picking between alternate actions to take. However the choices are based on conscious and unconscious desires. We don't control our desires so how can we really be in control of our decisions? You want this or that to occur. Do you know why?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Many people are not aware of the sub-conscious causes for their decisions. The decision seems to start with them.

They experience picking between alternate actions to take. However the choices are based on conscious and unconscious desires. We don't control our desires so how can we really be in control of our decisions? You want this or that to occur. Do you know why?

We cannot control what we subconsciously desire. Free will only applies to things we can control. Therefore, this is no problem. It is the equivalent of saying "since I cannot jump of a building and fly away, I don't have free will".
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know there's more to your argument, but what you just said is an example of causality. The network is causing itself to rewire.
(I address your arguments below, so you can skip down if you wish. What follows is background which I think is quite important).
There's more to the argument because defining causality is not an easy task, and it has become MORE difficult in the past century. When Aristotle first wrote about the issue of fatalism using the example of of a sea-battle the next day, concepts like fatalism, determinism, causation, were all very much linked. This is no longer the case. Now, for example, determinism is being increasinlgy replaced by the concept of supervienence. Also, as Paul Humphrey's notes: "Until quite recently, it was almost universally held that causation must be deterministic, in that any cause is sufficient to bring about its effect. This deterministic dogma has crumbled, but the influence of the prejudices behind it is still strong and underpins many sufficiency accounts." Now there are a plethora of accounts of indeterministic causation, even overdeterministic causation.

A rather difficult issue in addressing these problems is that while all of science, and even the most formal language of its expression (mathematics) rests to some extent on logic and philosophy, concepts such as causation and determinism are far less formal and much more philosophical in nature, and therefore more difficult to address. That is, while I can mathematically represent an epistemically nondeterministic system, I cannot do so with one that is ontologically nondeterministic. Additionally, what causation means is a philosophical issue with different answers.

That said, let me try to address your point quoted above.

What is meant by "causation?" Simply put, an event, or the summation of a vast number of particles obeying physical laws, constitutes the state of a system (or the universe), at time Tzero. At time T1, the state of the system has changed, in that the particles are no longer arranged exactly as they were at time Tzero. This is caused completely by the physical laws which govern the particles, such that no other arrangement at time T1 would have been possible. We might not now or ever be capable of determining the state of the system at T1 given our knowledge of Tzero, but causation does not require us to.

However, in the example I used above, it is not necessarily the case that given the state at Tzero, there is a unique state T1 which necessarily results from Tzero. This is because the state following Tzero is not subject only to the physical laws governing the totality of the paticles of the system. Rather, in the specific example of neurons, emergent organization results from the interaction of particles in ways that are influenced by, but do not depend on, physical laws. Moreover, this interaction is nonreducible to the components (the neurons). Finally, it is not clear that how one can say the state following Tzero is uniquely caused by anything.

What, after all, is the cause? The system is constrained by physical laws. There are not an infinite number of ways in which the neurons could organize, alter, rearrange, etc. But neither do the physical laws governing them cause the state T1, nor do the neurons themselves. Nor is there a unique T1 which must result given Tzero. So in order to retain a notion of causation, all we can say is that the state at Tzero was followed by the state at T1, understanding T1 as T1a which could have been T1b, T1c, or a number of other states given Tzero. Causation then becomes trivial.

Most importantly, causation as described above does not limit free will because it does not uniquely determine future states of the brain given prior states.

If the causal mechanisms exist and we just can't identify them, then the first objection applies. If the causal mechanisms do not exist, then the second objection applies.

The problem with the two points in your original post is that they conflate two seperate conceptual representations of causation. The first problem is the issue of causal determinism, which I addressed (among other places) above. The second is the ancient argument about all events having causes (which is one of the logical proofs of god). So let me address the second problem using the same example as above.

We go back to the state of the brain at Tzero. At T1, the state has changed in a manner not causally determined by the state at Tzero. However, this is not the same as saying that T1 has no causes. Rather, certain things influence, constrain, and limit the system so that the particular T1 the brain arrives at is one of a finite number of states. To make this less abstract, let me go back to an example I used earlier.

I'm walking along the street and find a wallet filled with hundred dollar bills and an ID. I realize that I can keep the money, or return it. Now, it cannot be said that there are no causes behind either decision. Lots of events influence my decision at this moment. However, if the first argument I outlined above is accurate (or certain other arguments against ontological causal determinism are), then the decision I make is not guarenteed by the state of my brain immediately prior to that decision.

Therefore, the decision I make is not guaranteed (addressing your first problem), but it is quite connected to the event(s) which preceeded it (addressing problem two).
 
Last edited:

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Science's 'most beautiful theories'


"
Terrence Sejnowski, a computational neuroscientist at the Salk Institute, extols the discovery that the conscious, deliberative mind is not the author of important decisions such as what work people do and who they marry. Instead, he writes, "an ancient brain system called the basal ganglia, brain circuits that consciousness cannot access," pull the strings.
Running on the neurochemical dopamine, they predict how rewarding a choice will be - if I pick this apartment, how happy will I be? - "evaluate the current state of the entire cortex and inform the brain about the best course of action," explains Sejnowski. Only later do people construct an explanation of their choices, he said in an interview, convincing themselves incorrectly that volition and logic were responsible."

Science's 'most beautiful theories' - Yahoo! News
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
We cannot control what we subconsciously desire. Free will only applies to things we can control. Therefore, this is no problem. It is the equivalent of saying "since I cannot jump of a building and fly away, I don't have free will".

Freewill is being able to do what you want to do. This is the compatibilism concept of freewill. This view doesn't conflict with determinism.

Since you are not able to "fly" you don't have the freewill to act according to your will.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Freewill is being able to do what you want to do. This is the compatibilism concept of freewill. This view doesn't conflict with determinism.

Since you are not able to "fly" you don't have the freewill to act according to your will.

Compatibilism is fine with me. Although it depends how you describe it I suppose. There should be determinist compatibilism and libertarian compatibilism.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Freewill is being able to do what you want to do. This is the compatibilism concept of freewill. This view doesn't conflict with determinism.

Since you are not able to "fly" you don't have the freewill to act according to your will.

So you then confine freewill to ability...

Sure...
'you cannot make one hair white or black'....
'you cannot add one cubit to your height'....

But does that make certain you have no freewill at all?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
I suggest if it cannot be demonstrated then it isn't true, but is one of those absurd philosophical arguments that has no place in reality.
It can be demonstrated; it is merely very difficult to, since (as mentioned) humans are not generally intelligent enough to do it, and modern computers have great difficulty. Your friends, the computers of the future, might be perfectly capable.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Libertarian Freewill is the concept that our actions are not determined. IOW at some point in making a decision a person has an actually choice between different possible futures. Or an individual's future is undetermined by the past. Because if it was determine, then the same individual with the same past, experience, knowledge, circumstances will make the only choice that is possible for them to make.

Being able to do what you want to do is freewill. Being able to do what you want to do doesn't mean you could have done anything other then what you did. What you did do just happen to be what you wanted to do. Doesn't mean you would have actually chosen to do something else.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
So you then confine freewill to ability...

Sure...
'you cannot make one hair white or black'....
'you cannot add one cubit to your height'....

But does that make certain you have no freewill at all?

It's more like you are free to make choices. You just wouldn't at that point in time made any choice different then the one you made.

Yes, if you were put in prison then your freewill would be severely restricted. However you could still make some choices. However just because you are free to choose doesn't mean your life wasn't determined from birth.

Your choices, if a person knew you, your knowledge, your experiences, every book you read, every movie, everything that influenced your thinking could predict the choices you've made through life. People who know you well enough can sometimes fairly accurately predict you behavior.

Doesn't mean you didn't freely make the choice. Only that if enough information about you was known, your choices could have been predicted.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
It's more like you are free to make choices. You just wouldn't at that point in time made any choice different then the one you made.

Yes, if you were put in prison then your freewill would be severely restricted. However you could still make some choices. However just because you are free to choose doesn't mean your life wasn't determined from birth.

Your choices, if a person knew you, your knowledge, your experiences, every book you read, every movie, everything that influenced your thinking could predict the choices you've made through life. People who know you well enough can sometimes fairly accurately predict you behavior.

Doesn't mean you didn't freely make the choice. Only that if enough information about you was known, your choices could have been predicted.

"It's more like you are free to make choices."

What parts of the brain makes those choices and how does it work?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Terrence Sejnowski, a computational neuroscientist at the Salk Institute, extols the discovery that the conscious, deliberative mind is not the author of important decisions such as what work people do and who they marry. Instead, he writes, "an ancient brain system called the basal ganglia, brain circuits that consciousness cannot access," pull the strings.
Running on the neurochemical dopamine, they predict how rewarding a choice will be - if I pick this apartment, how happy will I be? - "evaluate the current state of the entire cortex and inform the brain about the best course of action," explains Sejnowski. Only later do people construct an explanation of their choices, he said in an interview, convincing themselves incorrectly that volition and logic were responsible."

Science's 'most beautiful theories' - Yahoo! News

Oh god not again. Why is it that every once in a while some neuroscientists insists on telling the media some "groundbreaking" discovery which is then repeated as in your link?

Would you like to read an example of actual recent work in computational neuroscience, rather than a very misleading representation of the field in the news? Here is a complete, recent, book published by MIT press with a whole lot of references for you: Dynamical Systems in Neuroscience: The Geometry of Excitability and Bursting.

We aren't even close to a scientific understanding of how concepts are represented in the brain, let alone free will or consciouness.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
"It's more like you are free to make choices."

What parts of the brain makes those choices and how does it work?

Several are involved in the decision process actually. Just prior to the decision, memory and the speech areas of the brain become very active. However at the moment the decision is consciously made the right parietal cortex becomes active.

They are still doing research however I imagine that if this area of the brain becomes damaged a person might find themselves incapable of making a conscious decision.

How does it work. Some perception triggers a memory. That memory is associated with pleasure. The brain would liked to feel that "pleasure" again so the brain creates a road map of actions necessary to recreate that stimulation. The brain then controls the body as necessary to carry out those actions.

The brain wants certain types of stimulation and wants to avoid others, like pain. The brain determines how to get the stimulation it desires. Locks it in place as the best why to accomplish the goal.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Oh god not again. Why is it that every once in a while some neuroscientists insists on telling the media some "groundbreaking" discovery which is then repeated as in your link?

Would you like to read an example of actual recent work in computational neuroscience, rather than a very misleading representation of the field in the news? Here is a complete, recent, book published by MIT press with a whole lot of references for you: Dynamical Systems in Neuroscience: The Geometry of Excitability and Bursting.

We aren't even close to a scientific understanding of how concepts are represented in the brain, let alone free will or consciouness.

I disagree with "We aren't even close to a scientific understanding of how concepts are represented in the brain, let alone free will or consciouness"

I think modern neuroscience has learned a ton in the last 10 years on consciouness and how the brain physically works. Not everything however, but a lot more then we use too for sure.

I am not sure here LegionOnomaMoi.

Do you believe we have free will or not?

Do you by any chance study any of behavioral neurologist Vilayanur S. Ramachandran work?
 
Top