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If you believe in free will, respond to these two objections

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is not possible for a system to become unpredictable-in-principle through sheer complexity. Systems running on classical physics will never be random; only extremely chaotic.
That has yet to be determined, mainly because 1) research in dynamical systems in only a few decades old, 2) the focus on dynamical systems has been how we can approximate future states or model the systems (which precludes systems for which this is not possible) and 3) there are multiple researchers whose work in dynamical systems suggests that at a certain level of complexity, the system itself determines the outcome, not the initial conditions.

However, the tree of possibilities that they will go through is determined by the initial conditions, in the same way as the classical system. Unfortunately, that's not free will either.
Again:

"The first major challenge to determinism within the context of dynamical structures of physical systems came with quantum mechanics: here, the brilliant description of the behavior of a single quantum particle in terms of the linear Schrödinger differential equation is perfectly deterministic, but a special form of indeterminism emerges in the presence of measurement of the particle’s observables. When a measuring apparatus interacts with a quantum system, the system’s state jumps discontinuously and nondeterministically into one of its so-called eigenstates, which is completely different from, and not reducible to, the state prescribed by Schrödinger’s equation."
-Zoltan Domotor

“The Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that the world is nondetermistic…quantum causation is not so easy to square with popular philosophical theories of causation. Effects of quantam causes often have neither necessary nor sufficient conditions of their occurrence. On the Copenhagen Interpretation, a quantum cause may be connected to its effect by no spatiotemporally continuous process. Some cases perplex causal intuitions as well as theories of causation. Philosophers who wish to understand causation have much to learn from quantum mechanics."
-Richard Healey





"Clearly, the strong dynamical coupling of macro-objects to their natural environment cannot simply be ignored. Because of the non-local properties of quantum states, a consistent description of some phenomenon in quantum terms must finally include the entire universe. Similar arguments can be put forward in classical physics, where it has been known for a long time that most systems are severely influenced by the rest of the world. However, the new holistic properties of entangled states require one to consider matters from another viewpoint, that of quantum physics. The properties of the ‘ordinary’ objects of our experience— precisely those that we call macroscopic— are now seen not to be inherent in these objects. Instead, they emerge from, or are created by, irreversible interactions with the environment. In this way the local classical properties with which we are so familiar have their origin in the nonlocality of (entangled) quantum states. The properties of the interaction decide which properties become classical. For example, objects appear localized in space, since these interactions typically depend on position. It should be evident by now that classical properties can be seen to emerge from the quantum world only after decoherence has properly been taken into account…
One other— and perhaps the most prevalent— method for sweeping the interpretive problems under the carpet is simply to assume, or rather postulate, that quantum theory is only a theory of micro-objects, whereas in the macroscopic realm per decree (or should I say wishful thinking?) a classical description has to be valid. Such an approach leads to the endlessly discussed paradoxes of quantum theory. These paradoxes arise only because this particular approach is conceptually inconsistent, and it remains inconsistent even when its advocates appeal to notions such as ‘dualism’ and ‘complementarity’ to help with the difficulties. In addition, micro and macro-objects are so strongly dynamically coupled that we do not even know where the boundary between the two supposed realms could possibly be found."
-Erich Joos
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You need to include the agent himself as one of the conditions; then the conditions (cause) produce the choice (effect), and the first objection in the original post applies. Unless you're proposing Libertarian free will, in which case the second objection in the original post applies.


Well a cause produces (determines) an effect by definition, so maybe you mean that choices aren't completely caused, that some element of the choice is uncaused. In that case the second objectection in the original post applies.

The second objection does not apply. You began it with "if our choices have no causes..." But this isn't a dichotomous issue. There are causes which lead to the necessity of choices. But this doesn't mean that the causes determine the choices.

There is a possible flaw in your logic. You equate cause with determination. But it is possible that a cause could create a set of conditions in which a free agent could choose how to respond to thesee conditions. In that case, there is a cause behind choice, but the causes don't determine the choice.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
That has yet to be determined, mainly because 1) research in dynamical systems in only a few decades old, 2) the focus on dynamical systems has been how we can approximate future states or model the systems (which precludes systems for which this is not possible) and 3) there are multiple researchers whose work in dynamical systems suggests that at a certain level of complexity, the system itself determines the outcome, not the initial conditions.
I'm not talking about practical engineering here; there, it is true that the system is functionally random, because we don't have perfect data. Our models are random because we're trying to compensate for the inaccuracy of the data we have; the underlying laws of physics need not be random.

If there is non-random laws, then the situation in the "next" moment is decided just by the laws, and the current situation. By induction, all future moments are decided just by the current situation, and the laws of physics. Thus, the system is deterministic.

But it is possible that a cause could create a set of conditions in which a free agent could choose how to respond to thesee conditions.
But then the choosing must be done according to some process. That process is either deterministic or quantum-random. Either way, it's not free.
 
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CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
The second objection does not apply. You began it with "if our choices have no causes..." But this isn't a dichotomous issue. There are causes which lead to the necessity of choices. But this doesn't mean that the causes determine the choices.

There is a possible flaw in your logic. You equate cause with determination. But it is possible that a cause could create a set of conditions in which a free agent could choose how to respond to thesee conditions. In that case, there is a cause behind choice, but the causes don't determine the choice.

All of the causal factors that produce an effect, together, can be called the cause of the effect. The agent is one of the causal factors, along with the environment or whatever other causal factors there may be. Together they are the cause of the effect. The effect is the choice. The cause produces the effect. That is synonymous with saying the cause determines the effect.

The reason you keep saying the cause doesn't determine the choice is that you continue to exclude the agent as part of the cause, even after I've pointed it out to you, twice.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
Everyone knows that humans make decisions; that is a red herring in the debate on free will. The only real controversy here is Libertarian free will.

"Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All “free will theists” hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one’s nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise."

The objections are (quotes are from theopedia.com):

"\1) Causality —If causes are understood as conditions prior to an effect that guarantee an effect, and all events have causes, then it follows that all events were preceded by conditions that guaranteed those events. But this is the same as saying all events are determined. Since the choices of humans are events, it follows that the choices of humans are determined.

\2) Responsibility —Rather than salvage human responsibility, some maintain that libertarian freedom destroys it. If our choices have no causes, in what sense are they our choices? Is it any more agreeable to reason to hold humans responsible for choices they didn’t cause than to hold them responsible for choices that were caused and thus determined?"

Just as a reminder, this thread is about the above two objections. No one disputes the red herring of compatibilism; it is self evident:

"In compatibilism, free will is affected by human nature and man will never choose contrary to his nature and desires. Man will always do what he desires most at any particular moment - even when there are competing desires."

If you believe in free will, respond to the above two objections under the bolded headings.


If you look at a decision in hindsight, and try to determine causes which contributed to the action, then you have proven free will exists since without free will the actions could be predicted.

Here is the solid proof you need that free will exists try this link.
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
If you look at a decision in hindsight, and try to determine causes which contributed to the action, then you have proven free will exists since without free will the actions could be predicted.

Here is the solid proof you need that free will exists try this link.
With a little introspection we can understand what caused of many of our decisions, but let's concede your point for the sake of argument. What makes a decision unpredictable? Is it that we humans can't possibly take into consideration every single causal factor, or is it that some aspect is uncaused? If it's the former then the first objection in the original post applies. If it's the latter then the second objection in the original post applies.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
With a little introspection we can understand what caused of many of our decisions, but let's concede your point for the sake of argument. What makes a decision unpredictable? Is it that we humans can't possibly take into consideration every single causal factor, or is it that some aspect is uncaused? If it's the former then the first objection in the original post applies. If it's the latter then the second objection in the original post applies.
Or is it free will?
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
So how does your concept of free will respond to the two objections in the original post?

I like how you call something witnessed every day as a concept.

I did answer your first point.

You were looking for causality in hindsight.

If there was no free will why would you look to explain something in hindsight? Since prediction would be a formality.

The second point is not clear to me, if you could simplify it so that I can understand it, then I would be willing to comment on it.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
That's rather simple. I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies for repitition.

Causality: everthing is influenced, yes. But caused? No. Even if I hold a gun to your head and tell you to rob a bank, you still have a choice. I'm not FORCING you to rob the bank, just highly influencing you. There are things that take one's free will away, such as rape and murder. This, in my opinion, is the greatest supporter of natural absolute moral laws. But I digress....

Responsibility: this is just a reach. We are reaponsible only if we have free will. Influence is still a cause.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Ah, I'm glad you finally got around to peaking at the objections; too bad you didn't finish reading them. If you respond to the first objection by denying causality, then the second objection applies.

And you actually 'think' you can contain freewill by having such 'objection'?

If self denial is unacceptable as an example of freewill....
And choices 'freely' made for self satisfaction are simply cause and effect...

Then you cannot answer this post.....free minded.
I can then manipulate your next response as you are now confined to responding one way or the other....like Pavlov's dog.
And regardless of your 'clever wit'....
you had no will of your own...doing so.

Unless of cause you choose not to respond.
But then again, am I twisting your arm?
Can't help yourself?....no self denial?
Gonna do it anyway.....aren't you?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Causality: everthing is influenced, yes. But caused? No. Even if I hold a gun to your head and tell you to rob a bank, you still have a choice. I'm not FORCING you to rob the bank, just highly influencing you.
Once you take into account the chain of priorities, weighing of influences, etc, there isn't a choice anymore; only a mechanical decision.

In principle, I can predict exactly what will happen if I put a gun to your head and tell you to rob a bank.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
Once you take into account the chain of priorities, weighing of influences, etc, there isn't a choice anymore; only a mechanical decision.

In principle, I can predict exactly what will happen if I put a gun to your head and tell you to rob a bank.
Nobody has free will until they can acknowledge why they don't have free will.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Once you take into account the chain of priorities, weighing of influences, etc, there isn't a choice anymore; only a mechanical decision.

In principle, I can predict exactly what will happen if I put a gun to your head and tell you to rob a bank.

'Chain of priorities'...and a gun..... qualifications...

How about two plates of food....steak or fish...you can't eat it all....
I say 'choose'...

Can I say 'for sure'...what you will do next?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
'Chain of priorities'...and a gun..... qualifications...

How about two plates of food....steak or fish...you can't eat it all....
I say 'choose'...

Can I say 'for sure'...what you will do next?
Of course you can, on the condition I don't have access to a quantum random number generator. (Assuming that you have near-perfect information about me.)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Of course you can, on the condition I don't have access to a quantum random number generator. (Assuming that you have near-perfect information about me.)

So random events are now the play?

Can't be sure if you will go for the steak or the fish....
or get up and run away....
throw a tantrum and the plates....
or take your gun and go rob a bank....

But that's your will we are talking about?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Sorry, I missed your point; because the laws of physics say what?

That time travels forward?
Well, without free will, everything can logically be reduced to "because the laws of physics say so."

Can't be sure if you will go for the steak or the fish....
or get up and run away....
throw a tantrum and the plates....
or take your gun and go rob a bank....

But that's your will we are talking about?
Why can't you be sure? Given an near-infinite amount of information about your past experiences, memories, and personality, it seems a simple matter of deduction.
 
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