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If you believe in God AND evolution, why do you believe in God?

Brian2

Veteran Member
Not really. One regards the diversity and relationships of living things and the other is the origin of life.

Yes true.

If there is no evidence, you can't make claims about it in science. You'd have everybody going with their favorite choice and that wouldn't tell you anything.

The same principle applies with abiogenesis as with evolution however. In the end science may decide (if it has not already) that life is no more than chemically based and that life could and did come about through chemical processes only.
This would be an assumption based on naturalistic methodology and the lack of evidence for the supernatural and spirit.
If you believe we have a spirit, how would or do you handle this?

Not really. Lack of evidence is lack of evidence.

Does that mean that one day in the distant future the governing body for science might come to the conclusion that science has shown that God does not exist because science has not found evidence for God?

If there is no evidence, whatever I or anyone else chooses to believe has no bearing on the conclusions from the evidence.

So what I said above sounds as if it could happen one day. Many skeptics these days do say such things after all.

There is no evidence for Genesis as it is written.


That would depend on your interpretation of what is written.
I for example interpret Gen 1:1-2 as meaning that God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was covered by water and thick cloud which made it dark. (as in Job 38:8-9)

I disagree. What you claim simply isn't there. Different interpretations aren't a refinement of the Bible, they are a recognition of the Bible in light of what we have learned. The refinement is in the believer.

OK it is a refinement of what a believer believes a passage means.

With science all the conclusions are tentative. But the problem is that those that reject some or all of science do so on grounds outside of science and from personal bias.

If I am not willing to accept all of current scientific understanding because of my religious beliefs and because of a conclusion that I might see as being based on the presumption that there was no supernatural involvement or no God involvement or no spirit then, yes the grounds are at least partly outside of science and from personal bias but also the grounds are partly inside of science, to do with the naturalistic methodology which can cause science to reach conclusions that are wrong imo. For example, what I said above about science concluding that life is no more than chemical based.
IOW science is not the be all and end all of defining what is true.

I don't know that it needs to fit with what we have discovered using science. We just have to recognize that it is best interpreted as allegory. That demanding that all we have learned be tossed out to appease the emotions of those cannot bear the idea of there being more to it is wrong in my opinion.

This is where it gets tricky. You see your allegory interpretation as correct and that I should conform to that, and I see my interpetation of Genesis as vaguely historical and hope that others might be able to see that.
Actually I don't demand that all we have learned be tossed out. I see that what we have learned as confirming the Bible and the Bible as confirming what science has discovered.
BUT of course even though I am of course correct ;) and the Bible is correct also and science is correct also (except in assuming that God did not do it) from experience, I hold no hope of convincing people of this and so my spiritual maturity that I get from it is to not take it to heart and to accept others as Bible believers even though we disagree.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I appreciate your honesty and willingness to actually say what you are thinking about. It is a refreshing break from those that manufacture there own facts and call it science or those believers that regularly interject seemingly obtuse and incongruent statements that sound to me like passive aggression and insults. I find either to be gratuitous, unnecessary and, in the end, useless.

I can remember being angry at people and almost insulting them in the past about Genesis and other Biblical topics. I hope I don't do that as much these days. It can be tempting to do it however at times.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So back to abiogenesis and evolution.
Amazing the limits you would put on your own favored deit.
I'm asking about what science says.
For your reference,
"The theory of abiogenesis has a long history, but studies such as the Urey-Miller experiment and subsequent genomic investigations to elucidate the last universal common ancestor of all life on Earth have revealed a rich story that continues to open new chapters in our understanding of the origins of life." What is the Theory of Abiogenesis?.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes true.



The same principle applies with abiogenesis as with evolution however. In the end science may decide (if it has not already) that life is no more than chemically based and that life could and did come about through chemical processes only.
That is the direction that science is going, since that is what the evidence indicates.
This would be an assumption based on naturalistic methodology and the lack of evidence for the supernatural and spirit.
It is an hypothesis, several in fact, based on what has been learned so far.
If you believe we have a spirit, how would or do you handle this?
I don't worry about it. Finding that life arose through natural processes doesn't alter my belief in God. It just means that demanding that all that evidence and understanding be tossed out in favor of the interpretation of some people is a ridiculous way to go about it in my opinion. As a Christian, I think we are given the gifts of our own senses and intellect and a wonderful and diverse world in which to use them to learn. Why would God create something so complex, diverse and interesting and not want us to try and understand?
Does that mean that one day in the distant future the governing body for science might come to the conclusion that science has shown that God does not exist because science has not found evidence for God?
There isn't any governing body of science that I am aware of and science can't call the answer to a question it isn't capable of addressing for lack of any evidence to examine.
So what I said above sounds as if it could happen one day. Many skeptics these days do say such things after all.
Anything can happen I suppose. Scientists as a whole believe and disbelieve many things that are outside the scope of science. Scientists are people with personal opinions just like anyone. But it would be bad scholarship to claim something doesn't exist without reason.
That would depend on your interpretation of what is written.
As it is literally written, there is no evidence to support the claims of Genesis and some evidence that points to conflicting statements therein. Plants coming before the sun is one example that is fairly prominent.
I for example interpret Gen 1:1-2 as meaning that God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was covered by water and thick cloud which made it dark. (as in Job 38:8-9)
I don't really have any objection to this interpretation. I can't even say that I fully understand it.
OK it is a refinement of what a believer believes a passage means.
I think so.
If I am not willing to accept all of current scientific understanding because of my religious beliefs and because of a conclusion that I might see as being based on the presumption that there was no supernatural involvement or no God involvement or no spirit then,
This is a misunderstanding that I find with many believers. There is no presumption of this in science. Presumption isn't a useful mechanism in science. Presumption is what those rejecting science are usually doing.
yes the grounds are at least partly outside of science and from personal bias but also the grounds are partly inside of science, to do with the naturalistic methodology which can cause science to reach conclusions that are wrong imo. For example, what I said above about science concluding that life is no more than chemical based.
IOW science is not the be all and end all of defining what is true.
But science is very good at studying, testing and discovering things. It doesn't really define what is true. It provides a meaningful basis to draw rational conclusions on those things that fall into the scope of scientific study. Anything that is evident can be examined using science. That which is without evidence cannot.
This is where it gets tricky. You see your allegory interpretation as correct and that I should conform to that, and I see my interpetation of Genesis as vaguely historical and hope that others might be able to see that.
I see my interpretation as a better way than trying to follow a literal interpretation and force the facts to fit it rather than follow the facts to a natural conclusion.
Actually I don't demand that all we have learned be tossed out.
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you did. Some seem to though.
I see that what we have learned as confirming the Bible and the Bible as confirming what science has discovered.
I'll accept that, though I don't agree with it. Perhaps in a more vague and very general way.
BUT of course even though I am of course correct ;) and the Bible is correct also and science is correct also (except in assuming that God did not do it) from experience, I hold no hope of convincing people of this and so my spiritual maturity that I get from it is to not take it to heart and to accept others as Bible believers even though we disagree.
I'm not sure that it matters if the story is or isn't historically accurate and completely factual. That is trivial to the spiritual enlightenment and relationship with God in my view.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I can remember being angry at people and almost insulting them in the past about Genesis and other Biblical topics. I hope I don't do that as much these days. It can be tempting to do it however at times.
I haven't seen it that I can recall and temptation is often a test of our own personal fortitude and intellect.

I'm not the best at avoiding temptation myself, but I'm trying not to succumb to it here with some success.

Sometimes, I just have to ignore what enflames me and remind myself to let it go.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
the finite, infinite beginning. That Mystery is often called God.
Yes, it is, but there's no need to do that. I just stop at the fact that there is mystery without assigning it agency, because there is no reason to do otherwise and good reasons not to.
How can one not believe in a Creator?
One has to transcend magical thinking. That doesn't occur until one outgrows childhood, and even then, it usually doesn't happen.
Atheism is the most irrational of worldviews.
Agnostic atheism is the ONLY rational position in a world where gods can neither be identified not ruled out.
I would challenge you to prove otherwise.
I just defeated your claim. I explained how to transcend theism and why agnostic atheism is the only rational position possible. If you disagree with that answer, explain what it is you think is incorrect and provide your falsifying argument. I'm guessing that that's not going to happen, but I'm willing to be proved wrong.

Also, unsupported claims like yours don't need to be disproven to be rejected out of hand. If you provide no argument, no counterargument is needed. You must know Sagan's and Hitchens' famous statements (sometimes called razors) on the subject of extraordinary claims and unsubstantiated claims.
few here who are members of a religion and believe in evolution without question or doubt say why they also believe in God.
We know why they believe in gods. It's comfortable for them. Most were taught to believe as children and still find belief familiar and comforting or in the case of a minority, reached a point wherein inventing an explanation for the complexity seen in reality soothed some cognitive dissonance, which is also seeking comfort.
do you think this Mystery often called God has a personality?
Why would one think that except that it's comforting? There is no other reason to make that leap of faith except that one has never learned to reserve judgment regarding unanswerable questions that create a little cognitive dissonance until a comforting answer is picked. This proclivity to assign agency to the actions of nature for an answer to an unsettling uncertainty can be overcome.

If there's a god and an afterlife, I can wait for that to make a judgment. If there's an afterlife but no god, I can wait for that knowledge as well. If there is a god and no afterlife, there's no value in knowing that. And if there is neither a god nor an afterlife, then the entire subject is irrelevant.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Aside from the biological fact that humans ARE apes and while also ignoring the fossil record, genetics, etc.
Man to my understanding is a unique and distinct species. He can discover sciences and his mind can reach out to the stars and he has invented technology while apes still live by their animal instincts alone.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Man to my understanding is a unique and distinct species.

Just like every other species. If a species weren't "unique and distinct", then they wouldn't be their own species. :shrug:

He can discover sciences and his mind can reach out to the stars and he has invented technology while apes still live by their animal instincts alone.
So you are just making some kind of narcistic argument.

The fact of the matter, however, is that building a hubble telescope isn't actually that different from building a termite catching stick like chimps do.
The actual difference between both is a LOT smaller then you would like to think.



Having said that, this changes nothing about the actual points in the post you are replying to: we ARE apes, and share ancestors with the other apes, as per the fossil and genetic record. This is nothing short of factual. No matter how "special" you feel like humans turned out to be after 7 million years of evolution since the split with the branch that produced bonobo's and chimps.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Man to my understanding is a unique and distinct species. He can discover sciences and his mind can reach out to the stars and he has invented technology while apes still live by their animal instincts alone.
@TagliatelliMonster already gave you a definitive answer: all species are unique and distinct, and man remains an ape albeit a technologically sophisticated one.

Believers tend to chafe and bristle at that thought ("I ain't no monkey's uncle!") but admitting that one's ancestors swung through trees isn't really any harder to own than that he once defecated in his diapers and cried when he didn't get his way. That was then, this is now.

But here's the thing. When you say what man has accomplished, those are the accomplishments of a handful of people. Most haven't gone much further than their more hirsute cousins. They have language and can count, but still live like you say mostly on urges alone. Have you watched the American police videos, where people behave so foolishly and counterproductively. They don't understand that behaving belligerently and disrespectfully to a cop will work out badly for them. Or the people who were tantrumming during the pandemic about masks and vaccines. These are essentially chimps with language.

You might enjoy this cover of an old Kinks song:

I think I'm sophisticated 'cause I'm living my life
Like a good homo sapiens
But all around me everybody's multiplying and
They're walking round like flies man
So I'm no better than the animals sitting
In the cages in the zoo man
'Cause compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees
I am an apeman

I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized
'Cause I'm a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
And the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an apeman

I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an apeman
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voodoo man, oh I'm an apeman
'Cause compared to the sun that sits in the sky
Compared to the clouds as they roll by
Compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies I am an apeman

In man's evolution he's created the city
And the motor traffic rumble
But give me half a chance and I'd be taking off my clothes
And living in the jungle
'Cause the only time that I feel at ease
Is swinging up and down in the coconut trees
Oh what a life of luxury to be like an apeman


 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
@TagliatelliMonster already gave you a definitive answer: all species are unique and distinct, and man remains an ape albeit a technologically sophisticated one.

Believers tend to chafe and bristle at that thought ("I ain't no monkey's uncle!") but admitting that one's ancestors swung through trees isn't really any harder to own than that he once defecated in his diapers and cried when he didn't get his way. That was then, this is now.
Almost "Anything Goes," in the words of Cole Porter's song. There is absolutely no proof, and by that I must qualify because naturally there's no "proof" in science==right?--so perhaps you are more satisfied with the word "evidence" that humans "evolved" to the point of having the ability to be technologically savvy way over any of the "apes" classified by scientists. Somehow that "UCA" did not branch out to any other "ape" but humans with that ability. They all (bonobos, gorillas, chimpanzees) stay the same--none of them have developed ("evolved") to make cameras, build planes, etc.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
To whomever this may apply:
Either Jesus is the Messiah, or he is not. Or, as some would say, "anything goes..." Maybe he is, maybe he is not, maybe he existed as written, maybe he did not, maybe the Hebrew Scriptures are true and accurate, maybe they are not, and on and on...Anything Goes.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, it is, but there's no need to do that. I just stop at the fact that there is mystery without assigning it agency, because there is no reason to do otherwise and good reasons not to.

One has to transcend magical thinking. That doesn't occur until one outgrows childhood, and even then, it usually doesn't happen.

Agnostic atheism is the ONLY rational position in a world where gods can neither be identified not ruled out.

I just defeated your claim. I explained how to transcend theism and why agnostic atheism is the only rational position possible. If you disagree with that answer, explain what it is you think is incorrect and provide your falsifying argument. I'm guessing that that's not going to happen, but I'm willing to be proved wrong.

Also, unsupported claims like yours don't need to be disproven to be rejected out of hand. If you provide no argument, no counterargument is needed. You must know Sagan's and Hitchens' famous statements (sometimes called razors) on the subject of extraordinary claims and unsubstantiated claims.

We know why they believe in gods. It's comfortable for them. Most were taught to believe as children and still find belief familiar and comforting or in the case of a minority, reached a point wherein inventing an explanation for the complexity seen in reality soothed some cognitive dissonance, which is also seeking comfort.

Why would one think that except that it's comforting? There is no other reason to make that leap of faith except that one has never learned to reserve judgment regarding unanswerable questions that create a little cognitive dissonance until a comforting answer is picked. This proclivity to assign agency to the actions of nature for an answer to an unsettling uncertainty can be overcome.

If there's a god and an afterlife, I can wait for that to make a judgment. If there's an afterlife but no god, I can wait for that knowledge as well. If there is a god and no afterlife, there's no value in knowing that. And if there is neither a god nor an afterlife, then the entire subject is irrelevant.
Back to Cole Porter again --
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If there's a god and an afterlife, I can wait for that to make a judgment.
Maybe you can wait or maybe not. That all depends upon whether what is in scriptures is true.
Why do you think there are so many warnings about 'not waiting' in various scriptures?

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

“Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful.”

"No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation."
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe you can wait or maybe not. That all depends upon whether what is in scriptures is true. Why do you think there are so many warnings about 'not waiting' in various scriptures?
It serves these religions to frighten their adherents into thinking that something urgent is at stake and that they have the only solution, but one doesn't have to look too hard at the Christian Bible to realize that it's not accurate and not a source to take information from. This book says that the world and an original pair of humans was created in six days, and that the earth is immobile and rests on pillars. It calls gays and atheists abominations. Baha'i scripture is no more authoritative for me than the Christian version.
 
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