If you believe in God AND evolution, why do you believe in God?

[Trailblazer]

It serves these religions to frighten their adherents into thinking that something urgent is at stake and that they have the only solution, but one doesn't have to look too hard at the Christian Bible to realize that it's not accurate and not a source to take information from.

I'll second that!

 

[ChieftheCef]

I believe Absence is god.

 

[metis]

To whomever this may apply:
Either Jesus is the Messiah, or he is not. Or, as some would say, "anything goes..." Maybe he is, maybe he is not, maybe he existed as written, maybe he did not, maybe the Hebrew Scriptures are true and accurate, maybe they are not, and on and on...Anything Goes.

But that's assuming that these polar opposites are the only choice. If one takes a position on one of these extremes, then they should provide proof, but they generally don't.

 

[YoursTrue]

But that's assuming that these polar opposites are the only choice. If one takes a position on one of these extremes, then they should provide proof, but they generally don't.

Look, as far as I see, many are secular religionists. So yes it's like Spinoza's way of looking at things. That's it for now. Bye.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'll second that!

But of course you believe bahaullah's statements are true...

 

[metis]

Look, as far as I see, many are secular religionists. So yes it's like Spinoza's way of looking at things. That's it for now. Bye.

"Secular" implies non-religious, so how defines "religion" may be at play here.

So, was Spinoza religious or not, iyo? How about Einstein? How about me?

 

[YoursTrue]

In regard to some -- 2 Timothy chapter 3 makes a rather clear statement about some -- "having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. " And, as Pilate said to Jesus, "What is truth." Jesus said no more...

"Secular" implies non-religious, so how defines "religion" may be at play here.

So, was Spinoza religious or not, iyo? How about Einstein? How about me?

I know something about Spinoza's viewpoint. Since you know more, I'll leave you to answer those questions in detail. While I do not think Einstein proclaimed belief in the Bible, he had a cloudy viewpoint -- (my expression, if you can't understand it, oh well...) and you -- well I thank you for your remarks. And that's about it. Bye...fare thee well...

 

[YoursTrue]

In regard to some -- 2 Timothy chapter 3 makes a rather clear statement about some -- "having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. " And, as Pilate said to Jesus, "What is truth." Jesus said no more...

I know something about Spinoza's viewpoint. Since you know more, I'll leave you to answer those questions in detail. While I do not think Einstein proclaimed belief in the Bible, he had a cloudy viewpoint -- (my expression, if you can't understand it, oh well...) and you -- well I thank you for your remarks. And that's about it. Bye...fare thee well...

And insofar as how I got that impression about you, there are various remarks, perhaps I did not understand them. But I remember this one on another thread:

France is full of them.

A traditionally catholic country with laïcité (secularism) in their heart.

And you replied to ChristineM:
"Ya, pretty much where I'm coming from."

Just to clarify @metis. Thank you.

 

[YoursTrue]

"Secular" implies non-religious, so how defines "religion" may be at play here.

So, was Spinoza religious or not, iyo? How about Einstein? How about me?

Why aren't there more Secular believers?

France is full of them. A traditionally catholic country with laïcité (secularism) in their heart. Ya, pretty much where I'm coming from.

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Trailblazer]

But that's assuming that these polar opposites are the only choice. If one takes a position on one of these extremes, then they should provide proof, but they generally don't.

@YoursTrue presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

black-or-white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate.

Example: Whilst rallying support for his plan to fundamentally undermine citizens' rights, the Supreme Leader told the people they were either on his side, or they were on the side of the enemy.

Your logical fallacy is black or white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

 

[Trailblazer]

But of course you believe bahaullah's statements are true...

Why wouldn't I believe that?
I believe that Baha'u'llah was a manifestation of God and as such He was infallible...

If I had anything written by Jesus I would also believe it was true, since Jesus was a manifestation of God who was infallible.
But as you know, we don't have anything written by Jesus. All we have are men speaking for Jesus in the gospels and I have no reason to believe that what was recorded is what Jesus really said.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why wouldn't I believe that?
I believe that Baha'u'llah was a manifestation of God and as such He was infallible...

If I had anything written by Jesus I would also believe it was true, since Jesus was a manifestation of God who was infallible.
But as you know, we don't have anything written by Jesus. All we have are men speaking for Jesus in the gospels and I have no reason to believe that what was recorded is what Jesus really said.

I realize you believe that Bahaullah was a manifestation of God. That doesn't mean he was.

 

[Trailblazer]

I realize you believe that Bahaullah was a manifestation of God. That doesn't mean he was.

I realize you believe that Jesus was ________. That doesn't mean he was.

 

[YoursTrue]

@YoursTrue presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

black-or-white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate.

Example: Whilst rallying support for his plan to fundamentally undermine citizens' rights, the Supreme Leader told the people they were either on his side, or they were on the side of the enemy.

Your logical fallacy is black or white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Look.. you believe that Bahaullah is infallible. That takes the cake, no icing on top. Anyway, have a good evening.

 

[Trailblazer]

Look.. you believe that Bahaullah is infallible. That takes the cake, no icing on top. Anyway, have a good evening.

I also believe that Jesus was infallible. All Manifestations of God are infallible since Their Will is identical with the Will of God Himself.

The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 166-167

 

[CG Didymus]

It serves these religions to frighten their adherents into thinking that something urgent is at stake and that they have the only solution,

Yes, I do believe Christianity does this. But so does the Baha'i Faith. Here's what one Baha'i wrote.

The Baha’i teachings say that we absolutely need to feed our souls on a daily basis, and rely on the spiritual resources within our reach. In fact, the Baha’i teachings suggest that the need is urgent, that we can’t afford to wait, that this is the time for us to turn our attention to the spiritual part of our being.​

​

To delve deeper into those questions, I want to introduce you to Baha’u’llah (1817-1892), the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, a Persian nobleman who sacrificed his comfort and safety for the promotion of humanity’s spiritual life. When Baha’u’llah revealed the Baha’i teachings, he established a global blueprint to turn this Earth into a healthy, secure, safe, and peaceful home for humanity.​

​

Christians say it's "urgent" to get saved to prevent a person from being sent to hell. Baha'is say it's "urgent" to follow their teachings to save the world from being a living hell.

I realize you believe that Bahaullah was a manifestation of God. That doesn't mean he was.

I don't know that Baha'is believe in evolution.

Thirdly, let us suppose that there was a time when some animals, or even man, possessed some members which have now disappeared; this is not a sufficient proof of the change and evolution of the species. For man, from the beginning of the embryonic period till he reaches the degree of maturity, goes through different forms and appearances. His aspect, his form, his appearance, and color change; he passes from one form to another, and from one appearance to another. Nevertheless, from the beginning of the embryonic period he is of the species of man; that is to say, an embryo of a man, and not of an animal; but this is not at first apparent, but later it becomes visible and evident. For example, let us suppose that man once resembled the animal, and that now he has progressed and changed; supposing this to be true, it is still not a proof of the change of species; no, as before mentioned, it is merely like the change and alteration of the embryo of man until it reaches the degree of reason and perfection. We will state it more clearly: let us suppose that there was a time when man walked on his hands and feet, or had a tail; this change and alteration is like that of the foetus in the womb of the mother; although it changes in all ways, and grows and develops until it reaches the perfect form, from the beginning it is a special species. We also see in the vegetable kingdom that the original species of the genus do not change and alter, but the form, color, and bulk will change and alter, or even progress.​

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 309​

Maybe TB can clarify this, but it sounds like humans looked like a fish, or a reptile, or some mammal, but they were always human. The problem I have with this is, when they looked like, let's say a monkey, did they have sex with non-human monkeys?

Then when they transformed into a higher species, did all the humans change at the same time?

And, when humans reached the mammal stage of their development, how many different animals did they resemble? Mice? Raccoons? Zebras? Elephants? And then Apes?

But anyway, is this still evolution?

Then about "manifestations" being infallible...

The purpose of the Manifestation of God, according to Baháʼí belief, is to educate humanity.[4] The Manifestations of God are seen as divine educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing his will.[4] In expressing God's intent, the Manifestations of God are seen to establish religion in the world.[4] Each brings a book and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.[1] Baháʼu'lláh used the term revelation to describe the phenomena that occurs each time a Manifestation of God appears; he stated that the writings of the Manifestation of God represent the infallible word of God, and because the writings remain after the earthly life of the Manifestation they are a very important part of revelation.​

​

It's easy for people to say that Jesus was infallible, but Baha'is believe that Adam, Noah and Abraham were also manifestations. None of them, especially Adam, come any where near being "infallible"... that is if we go by the Bible story.

So, what's up with religion? Even a modern religion like the Baha'i Faith? They all have some teachings that help some people live better, more spiritual lives, but they all expect people to believe in things that don't make sense and turn out to be false.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I do believe Christianity does this. But so does the Baha'i Faith. Here's what one Baha'i wrote.

The Baha’i teachings say that we absolutely need to feed our souls on a daily basis, and rely on the spiritual resources within our reach. In fact, the Baha’i teachings suggest that the need is urgent, that we can’t afford to wait, that this is the time for us to turn our attention to the spiritual part of our being.​

​

To delve deeper into those questions, I want to introduce you to Baha’u’llah (1817-1892), the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, a Persian nobleman who sacrificed his comfort and safety for the promotion of humanity’s spiritual life. When Baha’u’llah revealed the Baha’i teachings, he established a global blueprint to turn this Earth into a healthy, secure, safe, and peaceful home for humanity.​

​

Christians say it's "urgent" to get saved to prevent a person from being sent to hell. Baha'is say it's "urgent" to follow their teachings to save the world from being a living hell.

I don't know that Baha'is believe in evolution.

Thirdly, let us suppose that there was a time when some animals, or even man, possessed some members which have now disappeared; this is not a sufficient proof of the change and evolution of the species. For man, from the beginning of the embryonic period till he reaches the degree of maturity, goes through different forms and appearances. His aspect, his form, his appearance, and color change; he passes from one form to another, and from one appearance to another. Nevertheless, from the beginning of the embryonic period he is of the species of man; that is to say, an embryo of a man, and not of an animal; but this is not at first apparent, but later it becomes visible and evident. For example, let us suppose that man once resembled the animal, and that now he has progressed and changed; supposing this to be true, it is still not a proof of the change of species; no, as before mentioned, it is merely like the change and alteration of the embryo of man until it reaches the degree of reason and perfection. We will state it more clearly: let us suppose that there was a time when man walked on his hands and feet, or had a tail; this change and alteration is like that of the foetus in the womb of the mother; although it changes in all ways, and grows and develops until it reaches the perfect form, from the beginning it is a special species. We also see in the vegetable kingdom that the original species of the genus do not change and alter, but the form, color, and bulk will change and alter, or even progress.​

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 309​

Maybe TB can clarify this, but it sounds like humans looked like a fish, or a reptile, or some mammal, but they were always human. The problem I have with this is, when they looked like, let's say a monkey, did they have sex with non-human monkeys?

Then when they transformed into a higher species, did all the humans change at the same time?

And, when humans reached the mammal stage of their development, how many different animals did they resemble? Mice? Raccoons? Zebras? Elephants? And then Apes?

But anyway, is this still evolution?

Then about "manifestations" being infallible...

The purpose of the Manifestation of God, according to Baháʼí belief, is to educate humanity.[4] The Manifestations of God are seen as divine educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing his will.[4] In expressing God's intent, the Manifestations of God are seen to establish religion in the world.[4] Each brings a book and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.[1] Baháʼu'lláh used the term revelation to describe the phenomena that occurs each time a Manifestation of God appears; he stated that the writings of the Manifestation of God represent the infallible word of God, and because the writings remain after the earthly life of the Manifestation they are a very important part of revelation.​

​

It's easy for people to say that Jesus was infallible, but Baha'is believe that Adam, Noah and Abraham were also manifestations. None of them, especially Adam, come any where near being "infallible"... that is if we go by the Bible story.

So, what's up with religion? Even a modern religion like the skinBaha'i Faith? They all have some teachings that help some people live better, more spiritual lives, but they all expect people to believe in things that don't make sense and turn out to be false.

Unfortunately many believe in the heaven-hell idea but upon sincere examination that is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I do believe Christianity does this. But so does the Baha'i Faith. Here's what one Baha'i wrote.

The Baha’i teachings say that we absolutely need to feed our souls on a daily basis, and rely on the spiritual resources within our reach. In fact, the Baha’i teachings suggest that the need is urgent, that we can’t afford to wait, that this is the time for us to turn our attention to the spiritual part of our being.​

​

To delve deeper into those questions, I want to introduce you to Baha’u’llah (1817-1892), the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, a Persian nobleman who sacrificed his comfort and safety for the promotion of humanity’s spiritual life. When Baha’u’llah revealed the Baha’i teachings, he established a global blueprint to turn this Earth into a healthy, secure, safe, and peaceful home for humanity.​

​

Christians say it's "urgent" to get saved to prevent a person from being sent to hell. Baha'is say it's "urgent" to follow their teachings to save the world from being a living hell.

I don't know that Baha'is believe in evolution.

Thirdly, let us suppose that there was a time when some animals, or even man, possessed some members which have now disappeared; this is not a sufficient proof of the change and evolution of the species. For man, from the beginning of the embryonic period till he reaches the degree of maturity, goes through different forms and appearances. His aspect, his form, his appearance, and color change; he passes from one form to another, and from one appearance to another. Nevertheless, from the beginning of the embryonic period he is of the species of man; that is to say, an embryo of a man, and not of an animal; but this is not at first apparent, but later it becomes visible and evident. For example, let us suppose that man once resembled the animal, and that now he has progressed and changed; supposing this to be true, it is still not a proof of the change of species; no, as before mentioned, it is merely like the change and alteration of the embryo of man until it reaches the degree of reason and perfection. We will state it more clearly: let us suppose that there was a time when man walked on his hands and feet, or had a tail; this change and alteration is like that of the foetus in the womb of the mother; although it changes in all ways, and grows and develops until it reaches the perfect form, from the beginning it is a special species. We also see in the vegetable kingdom that the original species of the genus do not change and alter, but the form, color, and bulk will change and alter, or even progress.​

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 309​

Maybe TB can clarify this, but it sounds like humans looked like a fish, or a reptile, or some mammal, but they were always human. The problem I have with this is, when they looked like, let's say a monkey, did they have sex with non-human monkeys?

Then when they transformed into a higher species, did all the humans change at the same time?

And, when humans reached the mammal stage of their development, how many different animals did they resemble? Mice? Raccoons? Zebras? Elephants? And then Apes?

But anyway, is this still evolution?

Then about "manifestations" being infallible...

The purpose of the Manifestation of God, according to Baháʼí belief, is to educate humanity.[4] The Manifestations of God are seen as divine educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing his will.[4] In expressing God's intent, the Manifestations of God are seen to establish religion in the world.[4] Each brings a book and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.[1] Baháʼu'lláh used the term revelation to describe the phenomena that occurs each time a Manifestation of God appears; he stated that the writings of the Manifestation of God represent the infallible word of God, and because the writings remain after the earthly life of the Manifestation they are a very important part of revelation.​

​

It's easy for people to say that Jesus was infallible, but Baha'is believe that Adam, Noah and Abraham were also manifestations. None of them, especially Adam, come any where near being "infallible"... that is if we go by the Bible story.

So, what's up with religion? Even a modern religion like the Baha'i Faith? They all have some teachings that help some people live better, more spiritual lives, but they all expect people to believe in things that don't make sense and turn out to be false.

Good question regarding your last one: what's up with religion? For me personally, I prayed finally to know God if He was there and He answered me. But it was humans who spoke to me, they didn't claim to be mystics or understand everything. I asked questions until I quite better understood. Hope that helps.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians say it's "urgent" to get saved to prevent a person from being sent to hell. Baha'is say it's "urgent" to follow their teachings to save the world from being a living hell.

Yes, that is correct. Jesus already conferred individual salvation upon us so that did not need to be done again....
Baha'ullah came to regenerate and save the world and all its peoples.

“Considering this most mighty enterprise, it beseemeth them that love Him to gird up the loins of their endeavor, and to fix their thoughts on whatever will ensure the victory of the cause of God, rather than commit vile and contemptible deeds. Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 240-246

Maybe TB can clarify this, but it sounds like humans looked like a fish, or a reptile, or some mammal, but they were always human. The problem I have with this is, when they looked like, let's say a monkey, did they have sex with non-human monkeys?

I am not good at science so I am the worst person to try to explain what Baha'is believe about evolution. @Truthseeker would do a much better job of that. Suffice to say that man is more than an animal and at some time during the course of evolution man got a soul, which then differentiated man from the other animals.

It's easy for people to say that Jesus was infallible, but Baha'is believe that Adam, Noah and Abraham were also manifestations. None of them, especially Adam, come any where near being "infallible"... that is if we go by the Bible story.

As I have told you before, Adam, Noah and Abraham were never referred to as Manifestations of God by Baha'u'llah. They were referred to as prophets.

So it does not matter what Baha'is believe about that. As we all know humans often misinterpret scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

Unfortunately many believe in the heaven-hell idea but upon sincere examination that is not what the Bible teaches.

What do you think the Bible teaches?