If you don't believe in.........

[angellous_evangellous]

If you ask nicely, A-E will probably give you your leg back.........

I had to delete a LOT out of that post. :biglaugh:

 

[AntEmpire]

psychics, feng shui, reiki, chi, reflexology, crystal and gem healing, and all the other scamming ways that use placebo effects as proof, then how is that any different than religious faith? Isn't religious faith just a placebo effect?

I can see the effects of chi, and feel the effects of chakra meditation. Feng shui is just about furniture, its alittle different then believing in a super magical creator man-being thing.

 

[shoinan]

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. It just would not have the same effect if one has not had experience that builds the trust (in the practice of medicine, not a person) necessary for the placebo to be effective.

You seriously don't understand how your analogy is not a placebo? I would encourage you to simply look up what a placebo is.

I know it's Wikipedia but it sounds about right to me:

In medical research, placebos depend on the use of controlled and measured deception. Common placebos are inert tablets, sham surgery and other procedures based on false information.

All you need is someone or any kind of source who or which you believe is credible to tell you that the placebo is going to work. You trust the person, hence you trust in the placebo. Maybe that person really believes it will too. But if it's based on false information then it's a placebo.

 

[Commoner]

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. It just would not have the same effect if one has not had experience that builds the trust (in the practice of medicine, not a person) necessary for the placebo to be effective.

What are you basing this on? Aren't you then forced to argue that alternative medicine must have actually worked on somebody in order for it to be able to act as a placebo?

You seriously don't understand how your analogy is not a placebo? I would encourage you to simply look up what a placebo is.

I didn't make the analogy to assert alien abductions are "placebo" per se. I made it to argue that your logical leap that if religion is a placebo, some religious experience must be genuine, is not warranted. That's a nice strawman, btw.

 

[Commoner]

I had to delete a LOT out of that post. :biglaugh:

Now why would you want to deprive me of your wisdom?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Now why would you want to deprive me of your wisdom?

You can do just fine without it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What are you basing this on? Aren't you then forced to argue that alternative medicine must have actually worked on somebody in order for it to be able to act as a placebo?

What do you mean what am I basing it on? Do you require people to have some kind of special knowledge of medicine to contribute anything on this thread?

I could consult medical research but it's hardly necessary for this thread. If you have an MD, please let me know.

I'm not arguing for the effectiveness of alternative medicine, but I do think that the placebo effect would be similar.... someone who only knows alternative medicine being given a placebo pill by a normal doctor would not have the same effect.

I didn't make the analogy to assert alien abductions are "placebo" per se. I made it to argue that your logical leap that if religion is a placebo, some religious experience must be genuine, is not warranted. That's a nice strawman, btw.

It's not a strawman just because you don't like it.

 

[Commoner]

What do you mean what am I basing it on? Do you require people to have some kind of special knowledge of medicine to contribute anything on this thread?
I could consult medical research but it's hardly necessary for this thread. If you have an MD, please let me know.

Well, you're making a specific assertion about how the placebo works. I'm simply asking you how you know that, I don't know why you find that so strange.

I'm not arguing for the effectiveness of alternative medicine, but I do think that the placebo effect would be similar.... someone who only knows alternative medicine being given a placebo pill by a normal doctor would not have the same effect.

No, I know you're not arguing for alternative medicine, but how would the placebo effect arise with a.m.? Assuming that placing crystals on one's head (or whatever) is not actually an effective treatment, how could one build the trust in it you claim is necessary for the placebo effect to work?

It's not a strawman just because you don't like it.

I agree. Nevertheless it was a strawman, but I forgive you as long as you don't beat it too hard for too long.

 

[ninerbuff]

don't people believe that doctors can heal them?

The above mentioned are "quack" doctors at best.

 

[ninerbuff]

I get migraines and I take Maxalt when I get them (about once a month). Sometimes I wonder if this is a placebo or not or if some of my other meds are. If they turn out to be placebos, then wouldn't that prove the power of self healing of certain afflictions? I believe we have powers that we just don't use because we don't believe in ourselves (nothing like flapping our arms and flying but certain little things).

Self healing and self destruction are real IMO. People who always claim to get sick all the time seem to. For myself, I always claim to rarely get sick and it's been over a year since I last felt ill. I also believe in the power of positive thinking since an optimistic outlook has done wonders for my life.

 

[1AOA1]

The above mentioned are "quack" doctors at best.

But as long as they believe doctors heal, then it's a placebo right?

 

[bobhikes]

Placebo effect very simple, Your mind can heal you.

If you trained your mind you could heal a lot more of your problems. No doctor could ever know you as well as you do.

 

[ninerbuff]

But as long as they believe doctors heal, then it's a placebo right?

No because real doctors use cures and medicines that have a clinical trials or science to back it's reported effects. Placebos "give" the sense it works, but with no evidence to back that it does.

 

[Erebus]

psychics, feng shui, reiki, chi, reflexology, crystal and gem healing, and all the other scamming ways that use placebo effects as proof, then how is that any different than religious faith? Isn't religious faith just a placebo effect?

Religion is largely a placebo effect yes. Does this mean it shouldn't be used?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

psychics, feng shui, reiki, chi, reflexology, crystal and gem healing, and all the other scamming ways that use placebo effects as proof, then how is that any different than religious faith? Isn't religious faith just a placebo effect?

Those things don't work????!!!!!! You lie. :yes:

 

[PennyKay]

Just thought I'd add my opinion in, this is an extract from:

placebo effect

"The placebo effect is a real and powerful psychological response. It tends to be thought of as a response to a bogus treatment, but it is actually present in all treatments. It is generally a beneficial response, although due to the nature of its feel-good factor it is possible that symptoms of a serious illness could be masked by it when using a bogus treatment or therapy."

Personally, I'm not too clued up on the placebo effect, however, from what I've read, religion could be compared to it to a certain extent. Indeed having the belief in the something so much so that your brain convinces you it is going to work, does seem to have a positive effect on the body.

I think that religion could be compared to the placebo effect if you are in the situation where you are praying for your God to heal your serious/fatal illness, and believing that he will do so, so much so, that your phycological state does respond and does create a positive effect on your body. This, I think is where the similarities end though.

 

[Commoner]

Religion is largely a placebo effect yes. Does this mean it shouldn't be used?

Well, there are quite a few good reasons why the use of palcebos is often discouraged in medicine. It can discourage seeking actual treatment when it's needed, it can actually have directly negative effects (nocebo) and the positive effects of a placebo are very limited.

So...depends, I guess.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

psychics, feng shui, reiki, chi, reflexology, crystal and gem healing, and all the other scamming ways that use placebo effects as proof, then how is that any different than religious faith? Isn't religious faith just a placebo effect?

I can see one big difference: religion's about much more than "healing". It's about community, belief, and a whole host of other things.

If you really wanted something religious that was analogous to the things you listed off, it'd be faith healing. Most religious people I know do reject faith healing as an example of the placebo effect (when it has real effects) or charlatanry (when it's outright fraud).

 

[McBell]

Religion is largely a placebo effect yes. Does this mean it shouldn't be used?

If it works, does it really matter if it is merely a placebo effect?

 

[Erebus]

Well, there are quite a few good reasons why the use of palcebos is often discouraged in medicine. It can discourage seeking actual treatment when it's needed, it can actually have directly negative effects (nocebo) and the positive effects of a placebo are very limited.

So...depends, I guess.

Actually agree with you here, it does depend on the religion and what compels a person to follow that religion. I know Christianity is famous for stories of people who'd hit rock bottom finding Jesus and pulling themselves together. While I have no love for Christianity, I find this to be quite a good thing. Equally however there are people who use their religion to justify their own shortcomings (bigotry being a classic).
I guess it's largely a matter of personality.

If it works, does it really matter if it is merely a placebo effect?

My thoughts exactly Mestemia