If you don't believe in.........

[1AOA1]

No because real doctors use cures and medicines that have a clinical trials or science to back it's reported effects. Placebos "give" the sense it works, but with no evidence to back that it does.

But don't people believe that real doctors cure people?

 

[Commoner]

Actually agree with you here, it does depend on the religion and what compels a person to follow that religion. I know Christianity is famous for stories of people who'd hit rock bottom finding Jesus and pulling themselves together. While I have no love for Christianity, I find this to be quite a good thing. Equally however there are people who use their religion to justify their own shortcomings (bigotry being a classic).
I guess it's largely a matter of personality.

A relatively sane religion has a similar "function" to methadone in my opinion. You know, you wouldn't exactly recommend it and it can be dangerous as hell, but I guess it's better than heroin.

That being said, I wouldn't really say that everything that we call "religion" falls under that category, but I certainly think Christianity does.

 

[AntEmpire]

No because real doctors use cures and medicines that have a clinical trials or science to back it's reported effects. Placebos "give" the sense it works, but with no evidence to back that it does.

Actually the placebo effect works better than nothing. :L

 

[Erebus]

A relatively sane religion has a similar "function" to methadone in my opinion. You know, you wouldn't exactly recommend it and it can be dangerous as hell, but I guess it's better than heroin.

That being said, I wouldn't really say that everything that we call "religion" falls under that category, but I certainly think Christianity does.

I reckon that's a fair point. I'm of the opinion that most personals "religion" are more beneficial than most organised religions. Having said that I think some forms of Buddhism and Hinduism (emphasis on SOME forms) can be beneficial and some personal religions can be quite destructive.
At the end of the day, I would say religion should be treated as a tool. You need the right tool for the right job and you have to be careful how you use it.

 

[Heneni]

:rainbow1:

psychics, feng shui, reiki, chi, reflexology, crystal and gem healing, and all the other scamming ways that use placebo effects as proof, then how is that any different than religious faith? Isn't religious faith just a placebo effect?

I had to smile when I read this. I would certainly not convince someone like Paul that this 'religion pill' was just working cause he thought it was working. As Paul said he and the apostels had become the scum of the earth. If he thought religion is like the placebo effect he must have wondered if he took the wrong pill. The man suffered with a smile i might add. He knew his faith was rock solid on eternal everlasting truths. Hence his endurance during very adverse situations.:rainbow1:

For the christians during that time things got way worse before it got better.

 

[Commoner]

Actually the placebo effect works better than nothing. :L

Actually it can work worse than nothing - the effect can be either positive or negative (nocebo).

 

[Commoner]

I reckon that's a fair point. I'm of the opinion that most personals "religion" are more beneficial than most organised religions. Having said that I think some forms of Buddhism and Hinduism (emphasis on SOME forms) can be beneficial and some personal religions can be quite destructive.
At the end of the day, I would say religion should be treated as a tool. You need the right tool for the right job and you have to be careful how you use it.

Yup, although a lot (all?) of the benefits of religion come from its social aspects. But that could be said about anything from politics to stamp collectors, so the actual religious belief in this case isn't what's providing the benefits.

 

[AntEmpire]

Actually it can work worse than nothing - the effect can be either positive or negative (nocebo).

Depends on what we're talking about then.

 

[Erebus]

Yup, although a lot (all?) of the benefits of religion come from its social aspects. But that could be said about anything from politics to stamp collectors, so the actual religious belief in this case isn't what's providing the benefits.

That really depends on the religion and the practitioner in question to be honest. I probably have a different experience of it in England as religion is only a social thing for a handful of people. Most English Christians don't attend Church for example.

 

[Commoner]

That really depends on the religion and the practitioner in question to be honest. I probably have a different experience of it in England as religion is only a social thing for a handful of people. Most English Christians don't attend Church for example.

Yeah, it does depend, the question is do you really think many of those people get any mayor benefit from religion? I certainly don't.

You know, it's funny - a few years back I was on vacation in Egipt with a couple of my friends. We struck up a conversation with one of the locals and somehow we started talking about religion. When the local asked one of my friends about her beliefs she proudly proclaimed to be a Christian, but she couldn't even explain what denomination she belonged to (for instance, whether or not she was a Catholic) or any specifics about it at all and I, the outspoken atheist, was left to explain the religious demographics of my country of origin and of which denomination my friend likely purports to be a proud member.

I think for most people it's really just about the security of "knowing" which group they belong to and which holidays they should pig out on, regardless of whether or not they actually actively participate in the religious community.

 

[ninerbuff]

:rainbow1:

I had to smile when I read this. I would certainly not convince someone like Paul that this 'religion pill' was just working cause he thought it was working. As Paul said he and the apostels had become the scum of the earth. If he thought religion is like the placebo effect he must have wondered if he took the wrong pill. The man suffered with a smile i might add. He knew his faith was rock solid on eternal everlasting truths. Hence his endurance during very adverse situations.:rainbow1:

For the christians during that time things got way worse before it got better.

That's the story. If it's true or not who knows? But I'm more referring to the christians of now. Many christians have absolutely no idea why they even follow their religion except that that was what they grew up with. I ask catholic friends now to name me at least 2 doctrines and they can't.
For some reason christians feel "warm and fuzzy" because the story that some guy gave up his life to save humanity. So the feel good effect of "turning your heart" to this invisible being makes christians feel better.

 

[1AOA1]

That's the story. If it's true or not who knows? But I'm more referring to the christians of now. Many christians have absolutely no idea why they even follow their religion except that that was what they grew up with. I ask catholic friends now to name me at least 2 doctrines and they can't.
For some reason christians feel "warm and fuzzy" because the story that some guy gave up his life to save humanity. So the feel good effect of "turning your heart" to this invisible being makes christians feel better.

Don't people feel 'warm and fuzzy' from having food and running water? Is this the placebo?

 

[Erebus]

Yeah, it does depend, the question is do you really think many of those people get any mayor benefit from religion? I certainly don't.

I think for most people it's really just about the security of "knowing" which group they belong to and which holidays they should pig out on, regardless of whether or not they actually actively participate in the religious community.

I think it can be a major benefit to some. For most though its a minor benefit (feeling safe, having purpose, adding fantasy to their lives, that kind of thing). Still, personally I'd rather have even a minor benefit than none at all, but I realise we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that one

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Don't people feel 'warm and fuzzy' from having food and running water? Is this the placebo?

If you feel fuzzy from eating, you might want to change your diet.

 

[1AOA1]

If you feel fuzzy from eating, you might want to change your diet.

True. Or it's your favorite dish eh?

 

[ninerbuff]

Don't people feel 'warm and fuzzy' from having food and running water? Is this the placebo?

Lol, here's the definition:

The placebo effect is the measurable, observable, or felt improvement in health or behavior not attributable to a medication or invasive treatment that has been administered. ​

A placebo (Latin for "I shall please") is a pharmacologically inert substance (such as saline solution or a starch tablet) that produces an effect similar to what would be expected of a pharmacologically active substance (such as an antibiotic).​

By extension, "fake" surgery and "fake" therapies are considered placebos.



​

 

[Commoner]

I think it can be a major benefit to some. For most though its a minor benefit (feeling safe, having purpose, adding fantasy to their lives, that kind of thing). Still, personally I'd rather have even a minor benefit than none at all, but I realise we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that one

Well, at that point it becomes more or less a cost benefit analysis for me. I see a lot of value in being as free of any false/incorrect/undemonstrable beliefs as possible. It's a longterm strategy and while having some sort of religious belief might give me some direct benefits, they wouldn't outway the costs assosiated with addopting it. And there are a loooot of hidden costs to religion that you'd have to consider.

So, yeah, agree to disagree.

 

[Erebus]

Well, at that point it becomes more or less a cost benefit analysis for me. I see a lot of value in being as free of any false/incorrect/undemonstrable beliefs as possible. It's a longterm strategy and while having some sort of religious belief might give me some direct benefits, they wouldn't outway the costs assosiated with addopting it. And there are a loooot of hidden costs to religion that you'd have to consider.

So, yeah, agree to disagree.

Actually agree with the cost/benefit mindset, but obviously disagree with the rest

 

[1AOA1]

Lol, here's the definition:

The placebo effect is the measurable, observable, or felt improvement in health or behavior not attributable to a medication or invasive treatment that has been administered. ​

A placebo (Latin for "I shall please") is a pharmacologically inert substance (such as saline solution or a starch tablet) that produces an effect similar to what would be expected of a pharmacologically active substance (such as an antibiotic).​

By extension, "fake" surgery and "fake" therapies are considered placebos.



​

So why can't it be a placebo? I mean it meets the criteria: it's administered, it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, and it does improve overall wellbeing.

 

[Commoner]

So why can't it be a placebo? I mean it meets the criteria: it's administered, it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, and it does improve overall wellbeing.

I think you're a placebo. :yes: