Illegals. Where do we draw a line on the law or should we?

[Curious George]

Maybe you should read the whole article, not just part of it.

"Welfare. Whether illegal aliens can obtain state benefits is not clear-cut. The short answer appears to be that they are not legally entitled to most benefits, but do in fact receive them.

A fair interpretation of the federal statute and state regulation must result in the conclusion that illegal aliens should not receive any form of state public assistance. However, illegal aliens do, in fact, receive state public benefits. That's because the burden of determining lawful status in the U.S. is on the shoulders of county social services employees who have neither the legal jurisdiction nor the practical ability to determine one's immigration status. Only an immigration official or federal worker whom the Secretary of Homeland Security has authorized may determine the immigration status of a person in the country.

Typically, any proof an illegal alien provides as evidence of legal status, regardless of its fraudulent nature, will satisfy social services agencies that determine the person's benefit eligibility because an intake clerk simply cannot make the determination that someone is an illegal alien. Therefore, the law is usually overlooked and illegal aliens manage to qualify for state and local benefits.

So that there are a few illegal aliens that have fraudulently obtained government benefits means the government is giving benefits to illegal aliens?

That is a very contorted way of looking at facts.

You said "let's start with our government and the free things it offers." Then let us actually deal with what our government offers and try not to veer from your original statement.

 

[We Never Know]

So that there are a few illegal aliens that have fraudulently obtained government benefits means the government is giving benefits to illegal aliens?

That is a very contorted way of looking at facts.

You said "let's start with our government and the free things it offers." Then let us actually deal with what our government offers and try not to veer from your original statement.

"A few" lol . Be blind if you want. It's your choice.

 

[Curious George]

"A few" lol . Be blind if you want. It's your choice.

Ahh, I will take that as an admission that our government doesn't in fact offer any real benefits to illegal aliens and acknowledgment that your previous post was merely empty rhetoric.

 

[We Never Know]

Ahh, I will take that as an admission that our government doesn't in fact offer any real benefits to illegal aliens and acknowledgment that your previous post was merely empty rhetoric.

if you say so lol. I gave you one state, go research the other 49.

 

[We Never Know]

Ahh, I will take that as an admission that our government doesn't in fact offer any real benefits to illegal aliens and acknowledgment that your previous post was merely empty rhetoric.

And for the record, the state is a government as well.

 

[Curious George]

if you say so lol. I gave you one state, go research the other 49.

You gave me one state that did not say that the government offered anything beyond life stabalizing treatment, education for children, and allowing illegal immigrants to buy hunting and fishing licenses.

If this is your only evidence offered, then I am left to assume you have no other evidence.

This brings us back to the point where we are talking about the benefits our government is offering. Turns out--not so much. Are you really that concerned with the sale of hunting and fishing licenses?

 

[We Never Know]

You gave me one state that did not say that the government offered anything beyond life stabalizing treatment, education for children, and allowing illegal immigrants to buy hunting and fishing licenses.

If this is your only evidence offered, then I am left to assume you have no other evidence.

This brings us back to the point where we are talking about the benefits our government is offering. Turns out--not so much. Are you really that concerned with the sale of hunting and fishing licenses?

Good grief! Blind and thick.
The state government gives out state and local aid/benefits to illegals. Even if it's fraudulently applied for, the state gives it out. Plain and clear.

"Typically, any proof an illegal alien provides as evidence of legal status, regardless of its fraudulent nature, will satisfy social services agencies that determine the person's benefit eligibility because an intake clerk simply cannot make the determination that someone is an illegal alien. Therefore, the law is usually overlooked and illegal aliens manage to qualify for state and local benefits."

 

[We Never Know]

You gave me one state that did not say that the government offered anything beyond life stabalizing treatment, education for children, and allowing illegal immigrants to buy hunting and fishing licenses.

If this is your only evidence offered, then I am left to assume you have no other evidence.

This brings us back to the point where we are talking about the benefits our government is offering. Turns out--not so much. Are you really that concerned with the sale of hunting and fishing licenses?

By the way. Hunting and fishing licenses aren't state benefits lol

 

[Curious George]

Good grief! Blind and thick.
The state government gives out state and local aid/benefits to illegals. Even if it's fraudulently applied for, the state gives it out. Plain and clear.

"Typically, any proof an illegal alien provides as evidence of legal status, regardless of its fraudulent nature, will satisfy social services agencies that determine the person's benefit eligibility because an intake clerk simply cannot make the determination that someone is an illegal alien. Therefore, the law is usually overlooked and illegal aliens manage to qualify for state and local benefits."

So you still think the state is offering these benefits to illegals or you now realize that the state is not offering it to illegals and in the rare instances where it is obtained from the state it is done so fraudulently?

 

[Curious George]

By the way. Hunting and fishing licenses aren't state benefits lol

I am just working with what you provided here about the benefits offered by the government. It seems there aren't really that many. That doesn't mean that there are none. I just don't see illegal immigrants crossing our border and taking risks for our wonderful hunting and fishing opportunities.

 

[columbus]

So you still think the state is offering these benefits to illegals or you now realize that the state is not offering it to illegals and in the rare instances where it is obtained from the state it is done so fraudulently?

The key word here being "rare".
I have no doubt that there are undocumented immigrants fraudulently claiming benefits. But the overwhelming majority come here to get jobs and avoid the authorities as much as possible.
In my experience, such as it is, far more undocumented workers pay taxes that they cannot claim than apply for state safety net benefits. When they need help they generally get it from churches and other private sources.
Maybe things are different wherever @We Never Know lives, but I doubt it.
Tom

 

[Curious George]

The key word here being "rare".
I have no doubt that there are undocumented immigrants fraudulently claiming benefits. But the overwhelming majority come here to get jobs and avoid the authorities as much as possible.
In my experience, such as it is, far more undocumented workers pay taxes that they cannot claim than apply for state safety net benefits. When they need help they generally get it from churches and other private sources.
Maybe things are different wherever @We Never Know lives, but I doubt it.
Tom

And i don't think your experience differs from the people on the ground at various agencies that provide benefits. In fact the majority of welfare fraud comes from Medicaid. But i hoped to steer away from this point because it is a red herring or perhaps a separate issue deserving of its own thread.

The point is when looking at what benefits our government actually offers we see a disconnect from the propaganda and political rhetoric. This mind you was an issue that was brought up to avoid the issue of cracking down on businesses that most decidedly do offer benefits to illegals with either actual knowledge or at least constructive knowledge of the illegals immigration status.

 

[Shad]

Well in the video the man said he tried to get Americans to do the work. What happens when Americans dont want to do the work?

Legal immigration, work visas or find a new business/employment (farmer). Your video is making an excuse for illegals and the farmers. Something you were against 5 minutes ago. The video is conflating illegal with legal as you doing. Do note the video avoids the issue of work visas which the farmers could use but don't.

You: Employers need to be punished for employing illegals.
Also you: Farmers need illegals to work as no one else will do it.

Me: How about works visas and legal immigration?

 

[Shad]

For the wages offered.
That isn't the same as won't.

This does not address my point as wagers were a factor anyways.

If I don't want to pay what the gas station is charging for gas, that doesn't mean "nobody will sell me gas", or "there's a shortage of gasoline".

A necessary product vs wages. Apples and oranges.

Same with labor, if people won't do the hot dirty work of gathering produce for $9/hr it doesn't mean they won't. It means farmers don't want to pay what it's worth. Maybe it's $20-25, I don't know. But for some reason, the free market principles that govern the costs of consumer goods go out the window when the commodity in question is labor.

As those questions usually involve more than free market as per min wage and ignore other job markets. The problem with farms goes well beyond wages and works. For one farmers are subsidized.

What's with that?
Tom

It was an argument used to maintain slavery as people wouldn't do those jobs for wages offered. Ergo an under-class is needed as no one else will do it. Typically made by those not putting any effort into the wage issue but merely to maintain what they already had. Hence why I said illegal vs legal as the OP is about illegals not legals.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Your video is making an excuse for illegals and the farmers.

Well it's a common argument that many Americans don't want to do hard labor. What gives an excuse for illegal immigration are Americans who enable cheap labor. You have to come to grips with the fact that many Americans don't do things themselves anymore. On my block many elderly retired people have a guy come out every Friday to cut their grass. The man speaks no english except yes, no, hello, good bye and maybe other words. You see, these Americans don't mind paying this man $15 a week to cut their grass and imagine, 20 houses in one area which can amount to $1,200 a month and that is in one location. Sounds lucrative especially for a bunch of guys (only two guys that cut grass) who don't know a lick of english and who are most likely illegal.

Something you were against 5 minutes ago.

The video wasn't my argument it was a common argument/discussion regarding the issue. I still am, and will always will be against illegal immigration. I believe in reform and I believe we need to give people a legal way to become citizens. However, I also believe we need corporate accountability. I also believe we need to change the hypocritical ways of U.S. culture. We shouldn't be okay with cheap labor so long as our food prices are down, but have an issue when the population becomes too brown.

The video is conflating illegal with legal as you doing.

I made the argument that companies enable illegal immigration much like Americans in their pick up trucks who pick illegal immigrants hanging out at Home Depot.

At the end of the day, some Americans are responsible for enabling illegals to come here along with these corporations.

Do note the video avoids the issue of work visas which the farmers could use but don't.

Perhaps, but I believe the video is highlighting whats going on in that part of America.

You: Employers need to be punished for employing illegals.
Also you: Farmers need illegals to work as no one else will do it.

That wasn't my opinion (referring to Farmers needing illegals)

The very last thing I said was:

Well in the video the man said he tried to get Americans to do the work. What happens when Americans dont want to do the work?

Please don't associate the video with my opinion. When I posted the video I said it was interesting as well as pertinent to the current discussion.

 

[Stevicus]

Well in the video the man said he tried to get Americans to do the work. What happens when Americans dont want to do the work?

Is it the work that they don't want to do? Or is it just that the wages offered are too low?

It may also be the working conditions and the opportunity costs of living in remote rural areas. People without cars might have to pick a job close to where they live or on available public transport. They may not even be able to get to the areas where they can even apply for a job on a farm.

My father and all of my grandparents grew up on farms. My father didn't want to go into farming, but many of his brothers and cousins did. But back in those days, farming families were larger and everyone pulled their share of the work. If they had to hire someone, it was usually someone in the area - a family friend or something like that.

I recall during the 80s when a lot of farms were going belly up and many other family farmers were having trouble. That's when "Farm Aid" became a thing, so maybe that sticks in people's minds where they don't really want to take the risk of going into farming and incurring large debts - when there might be easier things available.

That may be part of what the turn-off is, since it's a risky occupation and a lot of hard work for what seems like very little return. Maybe if they offered some kind of incentive to young families starting out, so that they could work a farm for a few years and then eventually own their own farm.