I am not quite sure what you mean? My fault because I have spent far too much time on this forum today as the posts are coming in thick and fast and it is hard to tear myself away to do more productive activities like housework, YAWN!
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Illness/disability the result of 'sin'?
- Thread starter Misty
- Start date
I am not quite sure what you mean? My fault because I have spent far too much time on this forum today as the posts are coming in thick and fast and it is hard to tear myself away to do more productive activities like housework, YAWN!
Thesavorofpan
Is not going to save you.
Okay I understand now. Thank you.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
I am not quite sure what you mean? My fault because I have spent far too much time on this forum today as the posts are coming in thick and fast and it is hard to tear myself away to do more productive activities like housework, YAWN!
I only meant that a few people have responded, explaining that the view you are rightly outraged about is a small minority view. Indeed, it's not necessary to hold the view to be an orthodox or even evangelical Christian. More than that, the view you describe represents either ignorance of or mishandling of the Christian tradition. I just wondered what you thought about those responses.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
Very well. But do know that God never made such a promise - that He'd elimate suffering from our lives. He did however say that He'd never give us more than we could handle and He'd never leave us alone.
Mind you, I don't expect you to understand this nor do I have the desire to push my belief on you.
For me...one of the greatest things about choosing Christ, is that it doesn't really matter how nasty things get in my life - there's always hope, always love and I know that I never have to go through anything alone.
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In which case god is a liar! I well remember an elderly 'born again' lady of my acquaintance when I was young. She was a lovely person, but developed a mental illness. Until the day she died she firmly believed god had deserted her and she was going to hell. What sort of evil deity would allow her to think that it could have relieved her mind?
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
Evil preys on weak minds. Why are you so sure that God placed these thoughts in your friend's mind?
We all die. Something will take each of us out at some point. It's the natural way of things.
I suppose the idea of an adequate deity is one who caters to humanity - ensures that we're given everything that we want. I don't know about you but when it comes to my daughters - I call the shots - not my eight and five year old.
And Christians - well, most Christians subscribe to the belief that Christ rules the roost in their lives. That's the entire concept of faith - you trust and believe that God will guide you as you live, as you fulfill HIS plan for your life. And you're cool with this - because that's what you want - to fulfill God's plan for your life, not your own.
If we stray from His plan, we can't expect Him to bend and cater to our every desire. We are told that God knows our hearts desires but what we want isn't always what God has planned for our life.
Again, there was never a promise made by God that life would be without trials. Though I don't believe that God causes suffering - I do believe that God can have a deaf ear towards us, when we live our lives without belief in Him, without acknowledgment of the purpose and plans that He may have for our lives.
It's a relationship. Why expect Him to provide if you aren't doing your part?
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Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Nobody forced this beautiful woman to think the way she did, it was her choice. If you are familiar with the Bible then you know the story of Job who, in a very short period of time lost his entire family and all that he possessed and still he would not turn away from his worship of God because he understood what mortality is all about and that how he handles his experiences here had ramifications that would affect his eternities.
I do not believe that God punishes us for sin but He will (if we turn away from Him) withdraw His spirit from us to let us flounder in our own foolishness. We bring upon ourselves most of the pain and suffering we must endure. Our Heavenly Father allows us to suffer through mortality to make us strong and give us experience for one cannot know to appreciate the joy who does not know the sorrow. Life can be a rich mix of both joy and sorrow and if we will hold fast to our faith nothing need seem more than we can bear.
Not too long ago there was a horrific car accident wherein 5 children and the husband died. It was amazing to me how the mother, who suffered life altering injuries herself, accepted what had happened without loosing her faith in God because she believes, as do I, that families are forever and that we are all in the hands of our creator. There is great strength to be had in a faith in God; it can help us face any adversity that life has to offer. Although it will not prevent trials, having faith in God can help us see them for what they are and then cope.
I don't believe the deity exists in the form presented by the Bible, if at all. I was responding to your point about god not giving people more suffering than they can bear.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I don't know anything about your friend's mental illness, so what I am about to say is a very general statement.
I do believe in mental illnesses, but I also know that many wrong, undisciplined mindsets and beliefs can also masquerade as mental illnesses. I know that some people who claim to be mentally ill are really EMOTIONALLY ill - in the sense that they have emotional issues that they need to deal with honestly and responsibly in order to get their head together.
I'll use myself as an example. I am Obsessive Compulsive (OCD). I've been medically diagnosed with that particular "mental illness," and I've successfully used prescription drugs for that condition in the past.
However, this condition only manifests itself in a life altering negative form when I am under a great deal of emotional stress. Only then do I occasionally need to take medication for it.
Actually I haven't taken any meds for it for at least 15 years. I've been under great stress in the past 15 years, several times - debilitating illness, major surgery (which was successful, so I'm no longer struggling with health issues, thank goodness), divorce, son in Iraq with an infantry unit for 18 months. Why didn't I need meds to control my mental illness during those times? How am I able now to control it in my everyday life?
All I know is that I worked through a lot of emotional issues, baggage, and damage, much of which I had given myself, though I could have easily blamed others and played the victim.
Part of this self-therapy was the reparation of my relationship with God, and applying Christian principles to my life.
I still have OCD. On occasion, I struggle with OCD tendencies. If they began to get a grip on my life again, I would go back to a doctor about it and get meds if necessary - because that would be the responsible thing to do, and God expects us to work WITH Him and to take responsibility for our actions.
I would also hunker down spiritually and re evaluate my relationship with God and be sure it was on track. I know that in the past, doing this was an integral part of my victory over the sometimes overwhelming urges of OCD.
God can and does heal us - as His overall will and plan provides. Faith is submitting our will to God and accepting His will in our lives. This doesn't mean that we are always healed. It doesn't mean that we are always healed or that we live a pain free life. It means that, as others have said, God promises that He will never forsake us and that He will never allow us to suffer more than we can bear - with Him at our side.
Some of my favorite verses on the topics of thought patterns, behavior and God's promises to His children are:
From Romans 5:
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.
1 Peter 1:5-7
1 Peter 4:12, 13
12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 14:26-28
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
John 16:32-33
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
Romans 8:5-7
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 15:12-14
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Galatians 5:21-23
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:6-8
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Hebrews 12:10-12
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
James 3:16-18
This is what I believe.
I am sorry you have OCD that is a bummer.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Nobody forced this beautiful woman to think the way she did, it was her choice.
What a crass statement, she didn't choose to become mentally ill!
It is worth noting that there is ongoing debate as to the existence of mental illness.
I think what Szasz has to say is of worth.
Thomas Szasz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
It's not so bad.
It's completely under control, and getting my Christian faith in order and taking responsibility for my mindset and thought patterns plays a huge part in my ability to control the OCD.
And actually, I enjoy the edge it gives me - it pushes me to be organized, to keep my house clean and neat, and to do things completely and well when I commit to doing something. I can tell when that "edge" of OCD behavior creeps in - and I take charge in controlling that so that it doesn't unsettle other people.
God has given me the strength and wisdom to control this in my life. I am very grateful for that!
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Nobody forced this beautiful woman to think the way she did, it was her choice.
What a crass statement, she didn't choose to become mentally ill!
On retrospect you are right, that was a bit thoughtless. I assumed that her attitude was not influenced by her mental illness because you implied that her attitude was a coherent choice because of her condition and not a manifestation of it. If her thought processes were in her control then she could have chosen a different attitude, if they were not then she will not be held accountable. Either way I believe that her life's experiences were allowed as part of the trial she needed to bear; for what reason only God knows but I am sure He loves her perfectly and the balance between His justice and mercy will be perfect. Mortality is just a chapter in a much bigger story and we should not judge God plan solely by what happens here. I believe that in the end we will see the wisdome and perfection in it.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Nobody forced this beautiful woman to think the way she did, it was her choice.
What a crass statement, she didn't choose to become mentally ill!
Misty, if I may, you seem ready to respond, often angrily, to comments like this, which all hands would agree are crass. OTOH, you seem reticent with responses that address the substance of your post in a constructive way, including Dawny and Kathryn, among others. One gets the impression that you're not really interested in constructive dialogue. (Of course, you may just be busy, and writing carefully thought out posts takes time we sometimes don't have. If that's the case, I'm happy to be wrong about my impression.)
Out of curiosity, how do you square this with the image of Christ portrayed in the Gospels? In there, we read about Jesus seeking out and helping the weak and foolish; now you seem to say that God leaves these people to fend for themselves. Is it that you think that Jesus and God the Father are working at cross-purposes?
Hmm. I don't think that the attitude toward the collision you describe sees it for what it is at all.
You were right in your first assessment: a collision where six people die is horrific. If we re-interpret this and twist it around so that it's at "trial" from a loving God, then we try to negate the horrific nature of it... and with that, we take away any motivation to actually do anything about it.
I just hope that the engineers who received the reports of the collision and had to decide how the road authority should address the underlying issues didn't respond to it with "oh, well - it's a trial from God and we're all in the hands of our Creator, so I guess it's all for the best." This sort of attitude might help the pain of the lone person left grieving, but as a general belief throughout society, I think it's truly dangerous.
IMO, we should be angered by suffering. We should be outraged at evil. These are the emotions that spur us to act to eradicate these things. When we dull these feelings, we also dull our motivation to act.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
I think he's brilliant.
I also think we mostly see the world as we are
Thank goodness his way of looking at it isn't mainstream!
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Why so?