I'm against abortion myself, but....

[Nanda]

Yeah, we are wired differently and a man can never fully capture what it feels like but that really is a weak argument in my opinion. It's no different then a depressed wife who kills her husband that says "you just don't understand".

On a side note, the same people arguing "you just don't understand what we go through, you're a man". Are the same people arguing there is no differences between sexes. Go figure...

Who said anything about feelings? I don't care if he understands how it feels or not. The fact of the matter is, he will never, ever find himself in that position. EVER. And I have a problem with people deciding what will or will not happen to someone else when they're completely exempt from it ever happening to them.

But this is also off-topic.

 

[Nanda]

Discussing when someone is a person is completely relevant to whether someone calls him/herself "pro-choice" or "pro-life".

Don't just state it, explain how and why.

 

[Scott1]

It's all about whether you feel it's ethical to impose your personal values on your neighbours through ill-conceived legislation.

I would say that it's "all about" defending life.... I don't ever hear someone say: "Well, yes... I think it was wrong to rob that bank and murder that bus load of of crippled orphans... but I don't want to impose my personal values on my neighbor."

This is why most people would agree that since abortions are inevitable it is better to have them performed safely by trained professionals with minimal physical trauma than it is to go back to the days of teenage girls hurling themselves down a flight of stairs or having their boyfriends punch them repeatedly in the uterus.

I respect your opinion... but I disagree.

Here's a thought experiment for you:

Since most people would agree that since bank robberies are inevitable is is better to give criminals weapons training and free small caliber weapons so they only cause minimal physical trauma.

Good deal? :cover:

 

[texan1]

I agree with your point rheff. But I don't think "pro-choice" is the same as "pro-abortion". I hate the idea of abortion and I can't imagine making that choice. But I can certainly see the reasons for keeping it legal. I do think "partial-birth" abortion should be illegal though. Would that still make me pro-choice?

 

[ChristineES]

There is something I don't understand in this discussion. Are some of the women saying that men can't be anti abortion because they will never get pregnant? Am I misreading that idea?

 

[3.14]

Who said anything about feelings? I don't care if he understands how it feels or not. The fact of the matter is, he will never, ever find himself in that position. EVER. And I have a problem with people deciding what will or will not happen to someone else when they're completely exempt from it ever happening to them.

never have sex you will be compleetly exempt from it aswell, that im exempt from it means i can judge without bias you worrying that it might happen to you makes you want easy rules just in case.

just like a burgler would want lesser punishment for burglary because he might get caught

 

[Scott1]

that choice. But I can certainly see the reasons for keeping it legal. I do think "partial-birth" abortion should be illegal though. Would that still make me pro-choice?

What are the reasons that you believe should keep it legal?

 

[ChristineES]

What are the reasons that you believe should keep it legal?

I shouldn't answer for him, but I think some of the reasons people might give (not that I agree) is rape and incest, among others.

 

[Nanda]

There is something I don't understand in this discussion. Are some of the women saying that men can't be anti abortion because they will never get pregnant? Am I misreading that idea?

No, men can feel any way they want about it. All I'm saying is that it might be easier for a man to impose a jail sentence for a woman who gets an abortion because they will never find themselves in that position. That's not to say that there aren't women out there who might feel that way, too.

 

[Nanda]

never have sex you will be compleetly exempt from it aswell

Not if you're raped it doesn't.

 

[Alceste]

I would say that it's "all about" defending life.... I don't ever hear someone say: "Well, yes... I think it was wrong to rob that bank and murder that bus load of of crippled orphans... but I don't want to impose my personal values on my neighbor."

I respect your opinion... but I disagree.

Here's a thought experiment for you:

Since most people would agree that since bank robberies are inevitable is is better to give criminals weapons training and free small caliber weapons so they only cause minimal physical trauma.

Good deal? :cover:

Well, I see your point, but society is not in general agreement that it's "wrong" for a woman to feel she should be allowed to decide if / when she would like to have children, whereas we are all in general agreement that stabbing a stranger in the face and running off with his wallet is wrong.

In a democracy, if you are in a minority that has moral values that differ from the majority the laws are unlikely to reflect yours rather than theirs.

So, pro-lifers, why not work on creating a life-affirming atmosphere where women will not feel economically or socially disadvantaged by starting a family? Free room and board in safe, peaceful neighbourhoods for single mothers, for as long as they need it? Free child care? Access to higher education? These sorts of things would go a lot farther than lectures and bumper stickers.

 

[rheff78]

I'm not debating the morality of abortion. Please keep on topic. Read the OP in order to respond. I don't think being pro-choice means pro-abortion, but my point is, if you support otehrs people's right to choose to terminate a pregnancy, you are pro choice.

 

[DallasApple]

I have often wondered about how abortion law should impact on the concept of the father having to pay to support the child. It's a bit heartless, but if a woman has the decision whether to have the child or not, and the father gets no say, why should the father have to face the consequence of the woman's decision to keep the child?

Simply put becasue he is in fact the father of the child..And if you let nature take its course without medical interference and she goes on to deliver then that is the "natural' consequence sometimes of choosing to have sex.Once there is a child here the father should not get to choose whether to help provide or not.

Dallas

 

[3.14]

thats just fancy name for forced sex and lets see the pil, spermacide,not every rape leads to babys, you know the chance to getting a baby from rape is smaller then getting shot in a driveby and there is something called aliviating circomstances.

 

[Alceste]

Simply put becasue he is in fact the father of the child..And if you let nature take its course without medical interference and she goes on to deliver then that is the "natural' consequence sometimes of choosing to have sex.Once there is a child here the father should not get to choose whether to help provide or not.

Dallas

I think I disagree with you here. What's good for the gander is surely good for the goose. If I decided to have a child when the father insisted on abortion I would be happy to take full responsibility and send him packing. Of course if he later decided he wanted to know his own child there would have to be some renegotiation.

 

[Fluffy]

I agree with the OP. If you support the rights of others to choose to have an abortion then that makes you pro-choice even if you wouldn't ever have an abortion yourself. Otherwise all pro-choice men are actually pro-life because they wouldn't (can't) get an abortion themselves but support the right of others to have an abortion.

All I'm saying is that it might be easier for a man to impose a jail sentence for a woman who gets an abortion because they will never find themselves in that position.

Women will find it easier not to impose a jail sentence on women who get an abortion because they might find themselves in that position. That means that the opinion of a woman is equally skewed in the other direction.

 

[Scott1]

Well, I see your point, but society is not in general agreement that it's "wrong" for a woman to feel she should be allowed to decide if / when she would like to have children, whereas we are all in general agreement that stabbing a stranger in the face and running off with his wallet is wrong.

Well.... that's kinda my point.... "society in general" tends to be a bully and a dictator... I think there is a bit more to "justice" than which mob is larger.... which is why I agree with your point about democracy.

So, pro-lifers, why not work on creating a life-affirming atmosphere where women will not feel economically or socially disadvantaged by starting a family? Free room and board in safe, peaceful neighbourhoods for single mothers, for as long as they need it? Free child care? Access to higher education? These sorts of things would go a lot farther than lectures and bumper stickers.

Amen.... that's why I think that it is important for people to be honest with what they believe... and if they believe in the dignity of the human person to be PRO-LIFE ------> and not be a pro-choice voter etc. Too many people come to agree with the basic moral principles, but for some reason can't get past the "pro-life means I'm intollerant" fear.... sometimes doing the right thing can be difficult, but in this case I'm sure they could work towards that "life-affirming atmosphere" if they would just have the courage to back their convictions.

Peace

 

[Nanda]

thats just fancy name for forced sex and lets see the pil, spermacide,not every rape leads to babys, you know the chance to getting a baby from rape is smaller then getting shot in a driveby and there is something called aliviating circomstances.

Where are you getting your data?

 

[ChristineES]

I am a pill baby, my mother was on birth control when I was conceived. No birth control is foolproof.

One thought: I do not judge women who do this. I don't say to women that I think they are a murderer because they had an abortion. If they were thinking about getting one, I may try to talk to them about, try to talk them out of it. I also don't think they are bad people.
That does not make me pro-choice, though.

 

[Alceste]

thats just fancy name for forced sex and lets see the pil, spermacide,not every rape leads to babys, you know the chance to getting a baby from rape is smaller then getting shot in a driveby and there is something called aliviating circomstances.

Tell that to the poor Austrian woman who had 6 children by her own father.

I'd say recommending that we all take the pill just in case we're unfortunate to get "fancy-name-for-forced-sexed" is pretty poor medical advice.