I'm Not a Tolerant Person

[DNB]

That's a horrible, depressing way of looking at life.

Rather sincere and factual, I believe!

 

[DNB]

Did you see the entry in the Affirmations that said, "We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others"? This is what is meant by a theology of despair.

In a recent thread, as is often the case, somebody claimed that secular humanism was an outgrowth of Christianity because it arose in the West. I disagreed, and said that secular humanism was a rejection of Christianity. Here's what I actually wrote:

"Secular humanism isn't a spin-off of monotheism. It's a reaction to it, a rejection of it, a rejection of theocracy, a rejection of faith as a virtue, a rejection of the divine right of kings, and the rejection of the idea that man is inherently defective (sinful) and helpless without God."

I wanted to reproduce that comment in the shadow of your dark worldview described above, so steeped in despair, so deprecatory of humanity. As I said, humanism is the rejection of that man-as-worm psychology somebody has convinced you of. Think of how often unbelievers are described in Christianity as agents of darkness hiding from the light. Yet you were just shown the light of an optimistic, constructive worldview, and all you could say is how evil man is, and how much man deserves to die. Humanity is depicted as a dog born deserving being whacked with a rolled-up magazine that should feel grateful when the beatings let up, and should love the one whacking him.

Sorry, but not for me.

You know that magazine that you were referring to in your abuse analogy, that was used to whack the dog? You should try reading it one day, or the newspaper, or any other history book, and take note of all the wicked atrocities that were voluntarily committed by humankind. Words cannot express the egregious nature of them, nor how utterly senseless and avoidable, and destructive that those actions were. Have such sinister acts relented or desisted to this day - they're on the rise - especially consider the fact that we had history to learn from. Does racism, segregation and discrimination not exist where you live - is there any corner of the world that isn't plagued with such inhumane crimes?

Sincere and devout Christians do not self-condemn themselves by comparing themselves to other men, they may be the lights of the world in that respect. It is against the precepts of God that we hold ourselves guilty as charged - have you ever met another human that truly and unconditionally loves his neighbour as himself (I would question your judgment if you said 'yes')?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That's a horrible, depressing way of looking at life.

I agree with you.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You know that magazine that you were referring to in your abuse analogy, that was used to whack the dog? You should try reading it one day, or the newspaper, or any other history book, and take note of all the wicked atrocities that were voluntarily committed by humankind.

Notwithstanding your condescension, I'm quite well-read and well-traveled, and am aware of what the world is like. However, not being immersed in religious culture, I am not daily asked to view the world in the worst of terms. I got this from the Jehovah's Witnesses the last time one came to the door. It was all doom and gloom, and how only their religion could rescue me from it. They were surprised that I told them that I just don't see things like they do. This seemed to stump them, as if they weren't expecting that answer, suggesting to me that they aren't hearing what I said. Can that be?

My worldview is constructive and more optimistic than yours. Yes, mankind has many serious problems, and there are a lot of people living unpleasant lives, but there are also people leading full and satisfying lives. My life is good, and I am both happy and grateful for that. I imagine having been made to believe what you do. Would I have found that life, and if I had, would I be able to see any good in the world?

Once again, I repeat: humanism is a life affirming worldview that celebrates the potential of mankind to make ours a better world through the improvement of the human condition while ceasing to despoil nature and war among ourselves, because man has a noble potential and our world is beautiful, valuable, and worth protecting. As already indicated, humanism rejects the ideologies of despair. Look at this from people that have been indoctrinated by a nihilistic, pessimistic ideology, somehow all in positions of power and authority:

• "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Christian and former Secretary of the Interior under Reagan. This is the guy who is expected to protect natural resources.

• "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla. This one embodies the fatalism and paralysis of this ideology.

• "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth. This Earth will not be destroyed by a flood. . . . I do believe God's word is infallible, unchanging, perfect." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill. In the meantime, America is being destroyed by drought, heat waves, wildfires, more frequent and sever tornadoes and hurricanes, and sever blizzards. We don't need this kind of despair. We need humanism, which recognizes that man alone can solve this problem, but it might be helpful if the faithful would get out of the way.

You sound like somebody who would welcome an apocalypse.

Does racism, segregation and discrimination not exist where you live - is there any corner of the world that isn't plagued with such inhumane crimes?

Sure it does. Yet I can be happy anyway.

I'm reminded of another Jehovah's Witness, this time from RF, who was also very pessimistic. She was angry that I could be happy even though there is suffering in the world. She framed that as, "You've got yours, so to hell with others."

How sad for her. Her life sounded pretty comfortable, but she wasn't happy. Her position was essentially yours: It's all bad, the world is going to hell in a basket, you wouldn't be happy if you pulled your head out of your a** and took a look around, etc..

This reminds me of our RF discussions. Her religion did this to her:

 

[Ashoka]

Rather sincere and factual, I believe!

“The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Ashoka]

Does racism, segregation and discrimination not exist where you live - is there any corner of the world that isn't plagued with such inhumane crimes?

Of course. And that's a result of man's ignorance, not some devil. We are ignorant, in my view, of our true nature, and that's why we behave in the way we do. I don't believe in intrinsic good or evil; rather, I believe that there is ignorance that leads to wrongdoing. A child growing up in the KKK is taught to hate, but when they travel and learn and gain wisdom, they drop their old beliefs and embrace the truth. It's like that with all of us; we shun those, even kill, those who believe differently from us. We take drugs for pain or to numb reality so we don't have to deal with it. We start wars because we feel justified in doing so, for whatever reason. Only when we open our hearts to the truth of who we are, only then do we wake up and realize what we were doing. We wake up to reality. And that's what Moksha is.

 

[Ashoka]

have you ever met another human that truly and unconditionally loves his neighbour as himself (

I've met plenty of people who love their neighbors, their children, their families, more than they love their own life. It's possible. When you don't see the world as ugly and bad, anything is possible.

 

[DNB]

Notwithstanding your condescension, I'm quite well-read and well-traveled, and am aware of what the world is like. However, not being immersed in religious culture, I am not daily asked to view the world in the worst of terms. I got this from the Jehovah's Witnesses the last time one came to the door. It was all doom and gloom, and how only their religion could rescue me from it. They were surprised that I told them that I just don't see things like they do. This seemed to stump them, as if they weren't expecting that answer, suggesting to me that they aren't hearing what I said. Can that be?

My worldview is constructive and more optimistic than yours. Yes, mankind has many serious problems, and there are a lot of people living unpleasant lives, but there are also people leading full and satisfying lives. My life is good, and I am both happy and grateful for that. I imagine having been made to believe what you do. Would I have found that life, and if I had, would I be able to see any good in the world?

Once again, I repeat: humanism is a life affirming worldview that celebrates the potential of mankind to make ours a better world through the improvement of the human condition while ceasing to despoil nature and war among ourselves, because man has a noble potential and our world is beautiful, valuable, and worth protecting. As already indicated, humanism rejects the ideologies of despair. Look at this from people that have been indoctrinated by a nihilistic, pessimistic ideology, somehow all in positions of power and authority:

• "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Christian and former Secretary of the Interior under Reagan. This is the guy who is expected to protect natural resources.

• "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla. This one embodies the fatalism and paralysis of this ideology.

• "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth. This Earth will not be destroyed by a flood. . . . I do believe God's word is infallible, unchanging, perfect." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill. In the meantime, America is being destroyed by drought, heat waves, wildfires, more frequent and sever tornadoes and hurricanes, and sever blizzards. We don't need this kind of despair. We need humanism, which recognizes that man alone can solve this problem, but it might be helpful if the faithful would get out of the way.

You sound like somebody who would welcome an apocalypse.



Sure it does. Yet I can be happy anyway.

I'm reminded of another Jehovah's Witness, this time from RF, who was also very pessimistic. She was angry that I could be happy even though there is suffering in the world. She framed that as, "You've got yours, so to hell with others."

How sad for her. Her life sounded pretty comfortable, but she wasn't happy. Her position was essentially yours: It's all bad, the world is going to hell in a basket, you wouldn't be happy if you pulled your head out of your a** and took a look around, etc..

This reminds me of our RF discussions. Her religion did this to her:

Anyhow, i wasn't being condescending, despite it possibly sounding that way. ...and you need to retract your 'pulling head out of ***' comment, or shame on you.
What I believe that the point is that you're missing, is the fact that you are up against an incorrigible and overwhelming demography of humans that accept neither of our views - righteousness and peace . You will never achieve your ideals, for you are up against an insurmountable impediment - men who are proudly racist, megalomaniacs, ruthlessly selfish, deviously ambitious, war mongers, shamelessly hedonistic, incorrigibly depraved. I, unlike yourself, recognize the fact that we are are responsible (to varying degrees) for all the crimes and hypocrisies committed on earth, ...and, I don't trust anyone who says otherwise.
My view is not pessimistic, there is joy in knowing that all transgressions will both, be accounted for and rectified. Whereas your views can easily be construed as naive and implausible.
The only testimony that you had as far as there being any hope in the world, was your own personal state - I'm glad that you're happy, but I believe that it's an extremely myopic view of the world as a whole. Like I said, pick up a history book from several different eras, and you tell me if things are getting any better - not even arguably.

 

[DNB]

“The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

The world is ugly and bad, and we're all complicit in its decline and corruption.

 

[DNB]

Of course. And that's a result of man's ignorance, not some devil. We are ignorant, in my view, of our true nature, and that's why we behave in the way we do. I don't believe in intrinsic good or evil; rather, I believe that there is ignorance that leads to wrongdoing. A child growing up in the KKK is taught to hate, but when they travel and learn and gain wisdom, they drop their old beliefs and embrace the truth. It's like that with all of us; we shun those, even kill, those who believe differently from us. We take drugs for pain or to numb reality so we don't have to deal with it. We start wars because we feel justified in doing so, for whatever reason. Only when we open our hearts to the truth of who we are, only then do we wake up and realize what we were doing. We wake up to reality. And that's what Moksha is.

Human history has been going on for about 10,000 years+-. When, Ashoka, are we going to start seeing the world as you claim? When will politicians and lawyers, the noblest of professions, not be synonymous with extortion and corruption, ....or even lessened? When will the front page of every newspaper in the world stop having stories of crimes and atrocities senselessly committed by man, ....or even reduced? When will we stop hearing, on an every day basis, about gang-bangers, drug addictions, prostitution, theft and terrorism, ....or even diminished?
My view is neither negative or debilitating Ashoka, but yours is naive and baseless.

 

[DNB]

I've met plenty of people who love their neighbors, their children, their families, more than they love their own life. It's possible. When you don't see the world as ugly and bad, anything is possible.

Oh Ashoka, sorry, that is highly unlikely what you asserted about the people that you know.

 

[Ashoka]

Oh Ashoka, sorry, that is highly unlikely what you asserted about the people that you know.

You are free to believe that.

 

[Ashoka]

Human history has been going on for about 10,000 years+-. When, Ashoka, are we going to start seeing the world as you claim? When will politicians and lawyers, the noblest of professions, not be synonymous with extortion and corruption, ....or even lessened? When will the front page of every newspaper in the world stop having stories of crimes and atrocities senselessly committed by man, ....or even reduced? When will we stop hearing, on an every day basis, about gang-bangers, drug addictions, prostitution, theft and terrorism, ....or even diminished?
My view is neither negative or debilitating Ashoka, but yours is naive and baseless.

When? When people like you and me do good for those in need. It starts with us. We have the power to make this world a better place with our actions. As long as their is ignorance, we will see things like this...but that isn't the end of the story. Because we can fight it.

 

[Ashoka]

The world is ugly and bad, and we're all complicit in its decline and corruption.

It is?

What about newborn children. Are they ugly and bad? Or a new couple expressing their love. Is that bad? Homeless shelters, soup kitchens, rehab facilities, foster care workers, peacemakers, social workers...are they all ugly and bad?

You have to look for the best and beauty in everyone, or else you're going to just see the negative. But when you know you can bring out the good in someone who makes bad decisions...that's a reward all it's own.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

i wasn't being condescending, despite it possibly sounding that way

You wrote, "You know that magazine that you were referring to in your abuse analogy, that was used to whack the dog? You should try reading it one day, or the newspaper, or any other history book, and take note of all the wicked atrocities that were voluntarily committed by humankind." Condescension is an air of superiority or disdain, such as your implied view that I am uniformed because don't agree with you, and that that is because I am uninformed. I could take the same attitude with you.

you need to retract your 'pulling head out of ***' comment, or shame on you.

Really? The comment was paraphrasing another poster here on RF. Apparently, it paraphrases you as well. What you posted to me a variation on that. It's any comment that implies what each of you implied - that you are knowledgeable, and that those who disagree are not just uninformed, but avoiding reality.

Of course, this is you being condescending again, assuming the posture of the morally superior, but that's OK. You come by it honestly. Your religion teaches you that. Everybody outside of it who disagrees is blind, a fool, wicked, etc.. One of the Psalms most quoted tells us that unbelievers are fools, corrupt, abominable, and not one is good: "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good." Does it get more judgmental than this? Like I said, you're in good company.

So who do you think I owe an apology and why? For using a mild, partially censored expletive?

You will never achieve your ideals, for you are up against an insurmountable impediment - men who are proudly racist, megalomaniacs, ruthlessly selfish, deviously ambitious, war mongers, shamelessly hedonistic, incorrigibly depraved.

You presume a lot. I've already achieved my goals. And I'm happy. Like the JW I referred to earlier, you keep coming back to the problems in the world, as if a person shouldn't be happy if those problems exist. There's a Muslim apologist on RF with a similar attitude. If you aren't as angry at the world for its injustices as he is, then you are a moral failure. I believe that all of you are under the sway of a worldview that teaches doom and gloom as a means of making itself seem necessary. I told you about the JWs that came to my door with similar stories of apocalypse, and that they alone had the antidote, and how they reacted when I told them that I don't see the world like they do. They seemed dumbfounded and unable to proceed. Their entire sales pitch depended on making others believe that they alone held the key to salvation in a terrible world. They sounded like you do here.

I, unlike yourself, recognize the fact that we are are responsible (to varying degrees) for all the crimes and hypocrisies committed on earth,

More of your condescension. I am responsible for any crimes and hypocrisies that I and any minor children I might have commit, not your crimes and hypocrisies. Nor are you responsible for mine.

Even if I concede your point, it's still not an argument for seeing only the bad in the world or being unhappy because of it. You don't seem to want to discuss that, just condemn it. How would I or anybody else be better off thinking and feeling like you and the JWs?

My view is not pessimistic, there is joy in knowing that all transgressions will both, be accounted for and rectified.

That's joyful to you?

You remind me of a bunch of quotes I assembled and commented upon in a previous post about people in heaven taking pleasure in seeing souls in hell being punished. Who teaches others to think this way? And do you see some of your own outlook here? These people are in heaven, which they imagine as experiencing schadenfreude as they fix their gazes on the horror below rather than the beauty and goodness of heaven:

Spoiler: Jeers in Heaven

[1] "In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned ... So that they may be urged the more to praise God ... The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens ... to the damned" - Thomas Aquinas

Apparently, the Christian god and the angels will be rejoicing at the suffering of souls in hell:

[2] "The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery." - Bishop Newcomb

Delighting in the suffering of others is part of the happiness of heaven:

[3] "This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed." - Samuel Hopkins

Does this seem confusing? Maybe this will help:

[4] "Non-Christians often ask the Christian, "But how can the God of love allow any of his creatures to suffer unending misery?" The question is, how can he not? The fact that God is love makes hell necessary." - Christian Theology in Plain Language, p. 219

So don't worry if all of this seems a little horrible to you now. This famous preacher is letting you know how happy torture will make you as well once you have gone to heaven:

[5] "The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven ... The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever ... Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell ... I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." - Jonathan Edwards

This early church father is certainly planning on having a good time watching others suffer and even laughing at them:

[6] "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." - Tertullian

Does this include infants?

[7] "Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!" - Jonathan Edwards

But what about your own children? This one from the Catholic Truth Society is as beautiful as a mother's love for her child:

[8] "What will it be like for a mother in heaven who sees her son burning in hell? She will glorify the justice of God." - Catholic Truth Society

One might ask just how all of these people in heaven laughing at the suffering of strangers, former friends, and even former loved ones that didn't make it would make them any different different from Satan and the demons below, who presumably will be laughing along with them. Good question.

I don't recall if it was this thread or not, but I recently posted the Affirmations of Humanism, one of which was, "We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others." This darkness that makes so many theists see the world so negatively is what the phrase "theologies of despair" refers to.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The only testimony that you had as far as there being any hope in the world, was your own personal state - I'm glad that you're happy, but I believe that it's an extremely myopic view of the world as a whole.

I wasn't discussing hope for the world. I was discussing the ability to be happy in a world with suffering.

The last time I was told that my worldview was from the people who object to a strictly empirical epistemology for deciding what is true about the world. They also tell people like me that we need to open our minds, shed what they call scientism or a materialistic metaphysics, and always in a voice that says or implies that something valuable is lost by not relaxing standards for belief, just as you are doing now. You imply that if I just broadened my horizons, I would see better (be less myopic), and that somehow, this would make life better.

But none of them ever come up with the goods. When I ask them what they have earned of value with this other way of knowing, they have nothing to offer.

I would ask you the same. Since my vision is myopic according to you, maybe you can share some of the vistas available to somebody like you who sees further. Tell me what I'm missing out on besides more pessimism and nihilism, and why you consider it of value? If you can't (and I doubt that you can't, since I don't value ideas that can't be used to make life better), what's the appeal of following in such footsteps? Why should a person who is presently happy make such a change?

pick up a history book from several different eras, and you tell me if things are getting any better - not even arguably.

Disagree, but I'm not really interested in going down that road unless you have and demonstrate a sincere interest in considering an alternate viewpoint, which is unlikely in the face of a faith-based belief, as when a Trump supporter asks, "What crimes?" You already know that you're up against a confirmation bias that filters out whatever doesn't support a faith-based belief. If he had asked about a specific investigation, you would discuss it with him, but if he can't see any criminality yet, it's because he doesn't want to.

Or if you saw The Life of Brian, "What have the Romans ever done for us" is a similar pessimistic confirmation bias being lampooned, the unrealistic part being that the one fitted with it is able to evaluate evidence after all and come to reasonable conclusions. The usual faith-based confirmation bias prevents that:

Seriously, though, if you want to hear that topic discussed, here is another video (18 minutes), this time from from Steven Pinker, on just what we are discussing here. It begins, "Many people face the news each morning with trepidation and dread. Every day, we read of shootings, inequality, pollution, dictatorship, war and the spread of nuclear weapons. These are some of the reasons that 2016 was called the “Worst Year Ever.” Until 2017 claimed that record — and left many people longing for earlier decades, when the world seemed safer, cleaner and more equal. But is this a sensible way to understand the human condition in the 21st century? As Franklin Pierce Adams pointed out, “Nothing is more responsible for the good old days than a bad memory.” You can always fool yourself into seeing a decline if you compare bleeding headlines of the present with rose-tinted images of the past."

Then he goes on to explain just how much better life is now than ever before. If you care to listen to this and discuss it, I'd be glad to:

Steven Pinker: Is the world getting better or worse? A look at the numbers | TED Talk

 

[Ashoka]

You remind me of a bunch of quotes I assembled and commented upon in a previous post about people in heaven taking pleasure in seeing souls in hell being punished. Who teaches others to think this way? And do you see some of your own outlook here? These people are in heaven, which they imagine as experiencing schadenfreude as they fix their gazes on the horror below rather than the beauty and goodness of heaven:

This is called the abominable fancy. And it's a major reason why I left. Rejoicing over other's pain, no matter what they have done, is sick and twisted. This was the kind of stuff that messed me up, along with hyper-calvinism, and made me believe that I wasn't elect and that my own friends would rejoice at the sight of me burning in hell. Deplorable.

 

[DNB]

You are free to believe that.

Thank you, ...I thought so.

 

[DNB]

When? When people like you and me do good for those in need. It starts with us. We have the power to make this world a better place with our actions. As long as their is ignorance, we will see things like this...but that isn't the end of the story. Because we can fight it.

No we can't, there have bleeding hearts (not derogatory) like yourself all throughout history. but no change has come to pass.
Like I said, Ashoka, atrocities have been continuously committed since the history of man began, and has not relented up until this day. I don't believe that you are recognizing the pattern of what's really going on in the world, and the influences that are at hand causing humans to hate one another, and destroy all that is good in the world. Of course, despite those who are fighting for human rights, love and peace.

 

[DNB]

It is?

What about newborn children. Are they ugly and bad? Or a new couple expressing their love. Is that bad? Homeless shelters, soup kitchens, rehab facilities, foster care workers, peacemakers, social workers...are they all ugly and bad?

You have to look for the best and beauty in everyone, or else you're going to just see the negative. But when you know you can bring out the good in someone who makes bad decisions...that's a reward all it's own.

You're right, there's nothing more gratifying and encouraging to see, is when a corrupt person changes their ways. But, in order for the world to eliminate enough evil, to the point where it can be said that crime is not prevalent in every major and minor city across the globe, will require at least 75% of people to change for the better....
...I hope that you have your fingers crossed, ...on both hands, ...and maybe your toes too, etc...