I'm Voting Libertarian This Year

[PureX]

So why hasn't that fear actually changed the behavior of a major party in the past? Did Jill Stein's run against Hillary Clinton change the behavior of the Democratic Party? Clinton was the favored nominee because she was perceived as the most electable candidate by rank and file Democrats. Joe Biden is the current nominee for the same reason. It is true that major parties do fear third party efforts, and that is why they support such runs when the third party is likely to bleed votes from the opposite party. That's why RFK currently enjoys financial support from Republican donors and Democrats in New Hampshire crossed over to vote for Nikki Haley. We have a two-party system that won't go away, and major parties aren't going to change because of quixotic efforts to promote third parties. Those third parties just become pawns in the games played by major parties to hurt the chances of their opponents.

We need them to know that we are not their loyal subjects. That we will vote for a third party and ruin their binary stranglehold on political power. It forces them to listen to us. But it takes time for them to see that we are determined. And we do have to be determined not to fall for their constant “vote for our crappy candidate because the other party’s candidate is even worse”. They are never going to stop doing that so long as they know we are going to keep falling for it. And the only way to teach them this is to stop falling for it and start supporting OTHER options.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

I've been weighing all the likely & unlikely outcomes
of the 2 evils, ie, Biden vs Trump. Short term vs long
term risks of various kinds are impossible to evaluate
with any confidence. So whoever the Libertarian
candidate is, they get my vote.

Yes, this could mean failure to prevent Trump's
return to power, with all the governmental, political,
& civil liberties carnage. But Biden is mishandling
the Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his
slavish support of Israel's inhuman brutality & greed.
What will happen to Ukraine? Too hard to discern
how that will play out with either.

So now, at least I'm not voting for evil. And I'll help
send the message that deadly religious bigotry, hatred,
& vengeance will lose votes.
Better to vote for fecklessness...but ethical fecklessness.

I see you describe yourself as a “Pragmatic Libertarian”.
My understanding of the word “pragmatic” is:
Advocating behavior that is dictated more by practical consequences than by theory or dogma.
Yet the reasoning you adopt as causal for your protest vote seems to be antithetical to it.

Since you concede that:

Yes, this could mean failure to prevent Trump's
return to power, with all the governmental, political,
& civil liberties carnage.

Which is the practical consequence…..
and justify that likely consequence with:

So now, at least I'm not voting for evil. And I'll help
send the message that deadly religious bigotry, hatred,
& vengeance will lose votes.

Which many would describe as what Trump is in fact running on….
how would facilitating a Trump victory get interpreted as running against the very things that Trump advocates for?

Biden is mishandling
the Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his
slavish support of Israel's inhuman brutality & greed.
What will happen to Ukraine?

How is it that you conceive that Trump (who is a Netanyahu supporter and ally and whose actions as president one could easily argue may well have contributed to the current situation in Gaza)
would as president result in a more advantageous outcome for Palestinians?

What is your considered opinion on which side Trump would throw his weight behind?

When asked about the current situation,
his response was “sometimes you have to let things play out”
His “criticism of Netanyahu was he “has to do a better job of public relations, frankly, because the other side is beating them at the public relations front.”

Trump on Israel-Hamas war: ‘Sometimes you have to let things play out’

Former President Trump suggested in a new interview that the war between Israel and Hamas will just have to “play out” despite concerns about rising civilian casualties. “So you have a war that&#82…

thehill.com

Do you seriously believe that a Trump presidency would be more advantageous for the Palestinians?

What will happen in Ukraine?
Trump is a Putin admirer who holds a personal vendetta against Ukraine that claims he could end that war in 24 hours……how much of Ukraine do you anticipate would remain as a sovereign country if he were to implement his vision? How emboldened would Putin be, and what would be his incentive to stop there?

So the practical consequence of your protest vote would likely be to enable a deterioration of the Palestinian position and success and emboldenment for Putin, which in all likelihood would put the world even closer to the precipice of a “WW3”, which is what your protest vote is contended to dissuade, in addition to “the governmental, political, & civil liberties carnage” you envision.

Explain to me how that might be considered
“pragmatic” rather than naive.

Sounds more like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Revoltingest]

I see you describe yourself as a “Pragmatic Libertarian”.
My understanding of the word “pragmatic” is:
Advocating behavior that is dictated more by practical consequences than by theory or dogma.
Yet the reasoning you adopt as causal for your protest vote seems to be antithetical to it.

I ponder that too.
As I repeatedly say, I've only opinions & values...not The Truth.
And I'm able to change my mind when compelled.
That's an advantage of lacking inerrant certainty.

Since you concede that:

Which is the practical consequence…..
and justify that likely consequence with:

Which many would describe as what Trump is in fact running on….
how would facilitating a Trump victory get interpreted as running against the very things that Trump advocates for?

I don't see "facilitating a Trump victory" as certain.
That would merely be an unfortunate possibility.

How is it that you conceive that Trump (who is a Netanyahu supporter and ally and whose actions as president one could easily argue may well have contributed to the current situation in Gaza)
would as president result in a more advantageous outcome for Palestinians?

What is your considered opinion on which side Trump would throw his weight behind?

I expect Trump to be as bad, & perhaps even
worse than Biden in support of Israel's campaign
of genocide. But consider also that a Biden win
solidifies voter support for continued genocide.
So it's not so clear that Biden is significantly
better.

When asked about the current situation,
his response was “sometimes you have to let things play out”
His “criticism of Netanyahu was he “has to do a better job of public relations, frankly, because the other side is beating them at the public relations front.”

Trump on Israel-Hamas war: ‘Sometimes you have to let things play out’

Former President Trump suggested in a new interview that the war between Israel and Hamas will just have to “play out” despite concerns about rising civilian casualties. “So you have a war that&#82…

thehill.com

Do you seriously believe that a Trump presidency would be more advantageous for the Palestinians?

What will happen in Ukraine?
Trump is a Putin admirer who holds a personal vendetta against Ukraine that claims he could end that war in 24 hours……how much of Ukraine do you anticipate would remain as a sovereign country if he were to implement his vision? How emboldened would Putin be, and what would be his incentive to stop there?

So the practical consequence of your protest vote would likely be to enable a deterioration of the Palestinian position and success and emboldenment for Putin, which in all likelihood would put the world even closer to the precipice of a “WW3”, which is what your protest vote is contended to dissuade, in addition to “the governmental, political, & civil liberties carnage” you envision.

Explain to me how that might be considered
“pragmatic” rather than naive.

Pragmatism is easier to apply in simpler situations,
eg, regulation. Should there be professional licenses
for those who pose significant risk to the public?
I favor licensing doctors, real estate agents, lawyers, etc.
Yes, it's a restraint of trade, but the benefits greatly
outweigh the costs.

Sounds more like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'm sure it does.
But I also think in longer time frames, liking
the idea that some day Libertarians will wield
more influence.
If we all vote only for the lesser of 2 evils, we'll
always be led by evil. If you think this is naive,
does this mean you've given up on fighting evil?

To register dis-satisfaction with Biden's
policies now, especially supporting genocide
of Palestinians could have the effect of
making him take steps to curb it, instead
of merely feigning disapproval of it.
Biden is discovering that blind support of
Israel's war crimes could lose him Michigan.
This could change things.

Not as simple as you think, eh.

 

[Heyo]

I've been weighing all the likely & unlikely outcomes
of the 2 evils, ie, Biden vs Trump. Short term vs long
term risks of various kinds are impossible to evaluate
with any confidence. So whoever the Libertarian
candidate is, they get my vote.

Yes, this could mean failure to prevent Trump's
return to power, with all the governmental, political,
& civil liberties carnage. But Biden is mishandling
the Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his
slavish support of Israel's inhuman brutality & greed.
What will happen to Ukraine? Too hard to discern
how that will play out with either.

So now, at least I'm not voting for evil. And I'll help
send the message that deadly religious bigotry, hatred,
& vengeance will lose votes.
Better to vote for fecklessness...but ethical fecklessness.

I'd probably be voting Green, if I lived in the US, or independent. Third option candidates deserve the encouragement they can get to keep on going, and the established parties deserve all the middle fingers to not get too self-assured.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

I ponder that too.
As I repeatedly say, I've only opinions & values...not The Truth.
And I'm able to change my mind when compelled.
That's an advantage of lacking inerrant certainty.

We’re not talking about “The Truth” here.
We’re talking about probabilities and likelihoods.

I don't see "facilitating a Trump victory" as certain.
That would merely be an unfortunate possibility.

Biden won Michigan by 3 points in 2020.
Current polls show him down by 8 points, with
only 3% saying they would vote for another (3rd)
candidate.
So either Trump or Biden will take Michigan.
If you believe there is another “possibility”, you are delusional.

I expect Trump to be as bad, & perhaps even
worse than Biden in support of Israel's campaign
of genocide. But consider also that a Biden win
solidifies voter support for continued genocide.
So it's not so clear that Biden is significantly
better.

Your contradicting yourself here.
You’re saying you expect Trump to be as bad or worse, while simultaneously saying that you think he won’t be worse than Biden.
This makes no sense.
Every indication is that he would be much worse.

Pragmatism is easier to apply in simpler situations,
eg, regulation. Should there be professional licenses
for those who pose significant risk to the public?
I favor licensing doctors, real estate agents, lawyers, etc.
Yes, it's a restraint of trade, but the benefits greatly
outweigh the costs.

This is a complete non sequitur.
With pragmatism, we’re talking about the practical consequences of not voting for Biden resulting in benefiting Trump, who if elected would be worse for your apparently chief concern of improving the situation in Gaza to be more beneficial for the Palestinians.

But I also think in longer time frames, liking
the idea that some day Libertarians will wield
more influence.

If we all vote only for the lesser of 2 evils, we'll
always be led by evil.

Your vote in a single presidential election will not facilitate that quest.

That would involve starting locally and building up enough support for Libertarian causes eventually over time with luck gaining adequate support to have more than a spoiler roll on the national level, which is where it currently stands.

The cart doesn’t go before the horse, without running over the cart and injuring the horse.

To register dis-satisfaction with Biden's
policies now, especially supporting genocide
of Palestinians could have the effect of
making him take steps to curb it, instead
of merely feigning disapproval of it.
Biden is discovering that blind support of
Israel's war crimes could lose him Michigan.
This could change things.

Registering dis-satisfaction with Biden’s policies now, isn’t the same thing as voting in November.
If you would like to protest current policies….
Have at it.
Write your congressmen and senators and the white house.
Organize or participate in protests.
Participate in opportunities to bring awareness of dissatisfaction in the situation.
None of these actions would facilitate or enable actions that run counter productive to your goal.

Voting Libertarian in November however, would run counter productive to your goal.
If would serve to help enable Trump, who if elected would run counter productive to your goal.

Not as simple as you think, eh.

Actually, yep, just that simple.

 

[Heyo]

We’re not talking about “The Truth” here.
We’re talking about probabilities and likelihoods.


Biden won Michigan by 3 points in 2020.
Current polls show him down by 8 points, with
only 3% saying they would vote for another (3rd)
candidate.
So either Trump or Biden will take Michigan.
If you believe there is another “possibility”, you are delusional.


Your contradicting yourself here.
You’re saying you expect Trump to be as bad or worse, while simultaneously saying that you think he won’t be worse than Biden.
This makes no sense.
Every indication is that he would be much worse.


This is a complete non sequitur.
With pragmatism, we’re talking about the practical consequences of not voting for Biden resulting in benefiting Trump, who if elected would be worse for your apparently chief concern of improving the situation in Gaza to be more beneficial for the Palestinians.






Your vote in a single presidential election will not facilitate that quest.

That would involve starting locally and building up enough support for Libertarian causes eventually over time with luck gaining adequate support to have more than a spoiler roll on the national level, which is where it currently stands.

The cart doesn’t go before the horse, without running over the cart and injuring the horse.


Registering dis-satisfaction with Biden’s policies now, isn’t the same thing as voting in November.
If you would like to protest current policies….
Have at it.
Write your congressmen and senators and the white house.
Organize or participate in protests.
Participate in opportunities to bring awareness of dissatisfaction in the situation.
None of these actions would facilitate or enable actions that run counter productive to your goal.

Voting Libertarian in November however, would run counter productive to your goal.
If would serve to help enable Trump, who if elected would run counter productive to your goal.

Actually, yep, just that simple.

I have found that fear is a bad advisor in long term decisions. And fearmongering is a despicable method.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

I have found that fear is a bad advisor in long term decisions. And fearmongering is a despicable method.

How do you interpret what I said as fear mongering?

 

[Astravalon]

When reading through the thread, this gem I came across awhile back comes to mind:

 

[Revoltingest]

We’re not talking about “The Truth” here.
We’re talking about probabilities and likelihoods.

With a heaping helping of guessing.

Biden won Michigan by 3 points in 2020.
Current polls show him down by 8 points, with
only 3% saying they would vote for another (3rd)
candidate.
So either Trump or Biden will take Michigan.
If you believe there is another “possibility”, you are delusional.

You're too quick with your psychiatric diagnosis.
Trump is showing vulnerability to losing much
ground if convicted of a felony. So there's a
real possibility that he could self immolate.

Your contradicting yourself here.
You’re saying you expect Trump to be as bad or worse, while simultaneously saying that you think he won’t be worse than Biden.
This makes no sense.
Every indication is that he would be much worse.

You're thinking solely of the short run.
In the long run, a more influential
Libertarian Party would be good (IMO).

This is a complete non sequitur.
With pragmatism, we’re talking about the practical consequences of not voting for Biden resulting in benefiting Trump, who if elected would be worse for your apparently chief concern of improving the situation in Gaza to be more beneficial for the Palestinians.

I gave you an example to illustrate
the easier area to apply pragmatism.

Your vote in a single presidential election will not facilitate that quest.

That would involve starting locally and building up enough support for Libertarian causes eventually over time with luck gaining adequate support to have more than a spoiler roll on the national level, which is where it currently stands.

The cart doesn’t go before the horse, without running over the cart and injuring the horse.


Registering dis-satisfaction with Biden’s policies now, isn’t the same thing as voting in November.
If you would like to protest current policies….
Have at it.
Write your congressmen and senators and the white house.
Organize or participate in protests.
Participate in opportunities to bring awareness of dissatisfaction in the situation.
None of these actions would facilitate or enable actions that run counter productive to your goal.

Voting Libertarian in November however, would run counter productive to your goal.
If would serve to help enable Trump, who if elected would run counter productive to your goal.

Actually, yep, just that simple.

I've nothing to add.

 

[PureX]

I rarely agree with @Revoltingest but I think he is making the right decision for himself in this instance. It would be wrong for him to vote for a candidate that he truly does not believe is fit to be president, republican or democrat.

 

[Revoltingest]

I rarely agree with @Revoltingest but I think he is making the right decision for himself in this instance. It would be wrong for him to vote for a candidate that he truly does not believe is fit to be president, republican or democrat.

You give me more credit than I think I deserve.
I'm making a preferred decision.
I don't know if it's right.

 

[Heyo]

How do you interpret what I said as fear mongering?

Voting Libertarian in November however, would run counter productive to your goal.
If would serve to help enable Trump, who if elected would run counter productive to your goal.

That's "vote democrat or else".
The fear of Trump would not convince me to vote Biden. I'd need a reason to vote for Biden, not a reason to vote against Trump. And "I'm not the other guy" is not a reason.

 

[PureX]

You give me more credit than I think I deserve.
I'm making a preferred decision.
I don't know if it's right.

None of us can "know if it's right". But it's our responsibility to make the best decision that we can. It sounds to me like you're doing that. I may or may not make the same choice, but that's why it's called a democracy. All I ask of my fellow citizens is that they try to make the best choice they can for the whole country, and not just for their own personal agendas.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

That's "vote democrat or else".
The fear of Trump would not convince me to vote Biden. I'd need a reason to vote for Biden, not a reason to vote against Trump. And "I'm not the other guy" is not a reason.

“Vote democrat or else”:
This would be an ultimatum.
Fear mongering is manipulation by using exaggerated rumors of impending danger to cause fear.

Nowhere did I give an ultimatum nor fear monger.

What I did was suggest in order to live up to his self moniker of “Pragmatic Libertarian”, that he should be……pragmatic.

Pragmatism is about taking into account practical consequences.
@Revoltingest indicated that the goal of voting Libertarian as a means of “not voting for evil”
indicating that the “evil” is Biden’s
“mishandling the Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his slavish support of Israel's inhuman brutality & greed.”
Yet, concedes that Trump in all likelihood would be worse in that regard.

Since the practical result of voting Libertarian in Michigan is to contribute to Trump winning Michigan, that would, by his own concession, be counter productive to the goal of further preventing the “Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his slavish support of Israel’s inhuman brutality & greed”, should Trump (with the help of Michigan’s 16 electoral votes) be elected.
As result, the vote for a Libertarian candidate would not be pragmatic in relation to his stated goal.

I didn’t offer this advice as a suggestion of who he or anyone else should vote for.
I merely pointed out that based on his goal, a vote for a Libertarian candidate in Michigan
(due to the narrow margine for victory) would be counter productive to his stated goal.
Simple as that.

 

[Revoltingest]

“Vote democrat or else”:
This would be an ultimatum.
Fear mongering is manipulation by using exaggerated rumors of impending danger to cause fear.

Nowhere did I give an ultimatum nor fear monger.

What I did was suggest in order to live up to his self moniker of “Pragmatic Libertarian”, that he should be……pragmatic.

Pragmatism is about taking into account practical consequences.
@Revoltingest indicated that the goal of voting Libertarian as a means of “not voting for evil”
indicating that the “evil” is Biden’s
“mishandling the Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his slavish support of Israel's inhuman brutality & greed.”
Yet, concedes that Trump in all likelihood would be worse in that regard.

Since the practical result of voting Libertarian in Michigan is to contribute to Trump winning Michigan, that would, by his own concession, be counter productive to the goal of further preventing the “Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his slavish support of Israel’s inhuman brutality & greed”, should Trump (with the help of Michigan’s 16 electoral votes) be elected.
As result, the vote for a Libertarian candidate would not be pragmatic in relation to his stated goal.

I didn’t offer this advice as a suggestion of who he or anyone else should vote for.
I merely pointed out that based on his goal, a vote for a Libertarian candidate in Michigan
(due to the narrow margine for victory) would be counter productive to his stated goal.
Simple as that.

My vote seems to anger you.
I advise trying to understand rather than to win.

 

[Heyo]

“Vote democrat or else”:
This would be an ultimatum.
Fear mongering is manipulation by using exaggerated rumors of impending danger to cause fear.

Nowhere did I give an ultimatum nor fear monger.

What I did was suggest in order to live up to his self moniker of “Pragmatic Libertarian”, that he should be……pragmatic.

Pragmatism is about taking into account practical consequences.
@Revoltingest indicated that the goal of voting Libertarian as a means of “not voting for evil”
indicating that the “evil” is Biden’s
“mishandling the Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his slavish support of Israel's inhuman brutality & greed.”
Yet, concedes that Trump in all likelihood would be worse in that regard.

Since the practical result of voting Libertarian in Michigan is to contribute to Trump winning Michigan, that would, by his own concession, be counter productive to the goal of further preventing the “Palestinian genocide, & risking WW3 in his slavish support of Israel’s inhuman brutality & greed”, should Trump (with the help of Michigan’s 16 electoral votes) be elected.
As result, the vote for a Libertarian candidate would not be pragmatic in relation to his stated goal.

I didn’t offer this advice as a suggestion of who he or anyone else should vote for.
I merely pointed out that based on his goal, a vote for a Libertarian candidate in Michigan
(due to the narrow margine for victory) would be counter productive to his stated goal.
Simple as that.

My pragmatism doesn't have such a short-sighted goal as the next election. If I vote for the lesser evil, I will be stuck with evil all my life. By voting third party, there is a chance that the two party system will be overcome one day.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

Trump is showing vulnerability to losing much
ground if convicted of a felony. So there's a
real possibility that he could self immolate.

You are the one who offered up the alternative of Biden or Trump and indicated that was the basis of your decision……

I've been weighing all the likely & unlikely outcomes
of the 2 evils, ie, Biden vs Trump. Short term vs long
term risks of various kinds are impossible to evaluate
with any confidence. So whoever the Libertarian
candidate is, they get my vote.

So if by some extraordinary chance Trump doesn’t become the Republican nominee, would your decision then be subject to change depending on who that nominee was?
Your choice of a Libertarian didn’t seem to take into any consideration as to who that candidate would be but simply their being Libertarian.

 

[Revoltingest]

You are the one who offered up the alternative of Biden or Trump and indicated that was the basis of your decision……

So if by some extraordinary chance Trump doesn’t become the Republican nominee, would your decision then be subject to change depending on who that nominee was?
Your choice of a Libertarian didn’t seem to take into any consideration as to who that candidate would be but simply their being Libertarian.

You should stop trying so hard to win something.

 

[Copernicus]

We need them to know that we are not their loyal subjects. That we will vote for a third party and ruin their binary stranglehold on political power. It forces them to listen to us. But it takes time for them to see that we are determined. And we do have to be determined not to fall for their constant “vote for our crappy candidate because the other party’s candidate is even worse”. They are never going to stop doing that so long as they know we are going to keep falling for it. And the only way to teach them this is to stop falling for it and start supporting OTHER options.

You keep talking about a protest vote as something that is going to "teach" the majority party or change their behavior in the future. However, such protest votes have been going on since when the two-party system first emerged in the 18th century. Most politicians (excluding Trump, of course) know full well that the voters are not their loyal subjects, but your hyperbole is again nothing more than an echo of the past. You make no new argument here, but you persist in repeating it with an apparent expectation that something will change. It won't, because the system that we use to vote candidates into office is what keeps the two-party system in place. The only ones here that are falling for a bad argument here are those who think that protest votes will bring about change in the system or the way that major parties behave. They won't.

Both parties are coalitions of factions that often struggle with each other other over policies and platforms. Third parties tend to be made up of single-issue voters that will only ever play a factional role in a major coalition of factions. They dream of being the tail that wags the dog, but they routinely fade into the background once an election is over.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

My vote seems to anger you.
I advise trying to understand rather than to win.

In what way do you interpret anger on my part?
You aren’t confusing “vote democrat or else” as my sentiment I trust?
That was an unwarranted assumption from @Heyo that I was quoting in order to dispel.

I’m attempting to understand…..
But due to lack of any clear logic being involved on your part and contradictory proposal of action to predictable consequence of failing to achieve your stated goal, but rather negate it’s likelihood…
It’s not making much sense.
I’m sorry if you are unable to see that.