I'm Voting Libertarian This Year

[tytlyf]

So you're not using your vote to prevent a Trump presidency. Shame

 

[Copernicus]

I see a bigger picture than you do.

My picture appears to be identical in size to yours. You just need new glasses.

I'd prefer Biden over Trump.
But not so much so that I'm willing to vote for him.
I'd rather see Libertarians gain more influence.

This is close to the source of our disagreement. I don't think that Libertarians will gain any more influence than they've had in the past. They will always represent a marginal party that has a spoiler effect in close elections as long as we have first-past-the-post voting. The excuse I've heard for voting third party since I first began voting was that it would "send a message" to the party whose candidate got spoiled. AFAICT, that has never worked. It's hard to imagine what change they expect to happen, but they keep repeating the failed effort over and over, hoping for some different result.

Anyway, that's my comment on your plan. I appreciate the effort you make to respond to everyone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I hope to send the message that civil liberties,
peaceful foreign policy, lower taxes, & having
the rule of law apply even to government
workers will prevail.
If you vote for Biden, you're voting in opposition
to those things. I understand that you're balancing
negatives against positives too. We each weigh
them, & decide for ourselves. But you do not
have the moral high ground. I don't claim it either.

My second vote for Biden is a third consecutive vote against tyranny.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

They will always represent a marginal party that has a spoiler effect in close elections as long as we have first-past-the-post voting.

This is the problem -- you don't have "first-past-the-post" voting. You have an Electoral College that can totally thwart the will of a clear majority of Americans, and make somebody they didn't vote for by millions of votes -- winner and President.

 

[Copernicus]

This is the problem -- you don't have "first-past-the-post" voting. You have an Electoral College that can totally thwart the will of a clear majority of Americans, and make somebody they didn't vote for by millions of votes -- winner and President.

But you do have first-past-post in most, but not all, states when it comes to winning delegates. Plurality candidates can be winners of the entire delegate slate in many states. I hope that more states begin to implement ranked-choice voting. That would allow voters like Rev, who prefers to vote third party, to have an actual say in which of the two major-party candidates should be favored. It would also tend to reveal how popular minority parties are in the population. As things stand now, the voters who want to vote for a third party candidate need to make a choice between voting their preference and voting for what they consider the lesser of two evils.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But you do have first-past-post in most, but not all, states when it comes to winning delegates. Plurality candidates can be winners of the entire delegate slate in many states. I hope that more states begin to implement ranked-choice voting. That would allow voters like Rev, who prefers to vote third party, to have an actual say in which of the two major-party candidates should be favored. It would also tend to reveal how popular minority parties are in the population. As things stand now, the voters who want to vote for a third party candidate need to make a choice between voting their preference and voting for what they consider the lesser of two evils.

Not to mention how things are done in America effectively silences vast swathes and chunks of the population as most states amd districts are predictable election after election. Like in Red Indiana where Dems largely go ignored.

 

[Copernicus]

Not to mention how things are done in America effectively silences vast swathes and chunks of the population as most states amd districts are predictable election after election. Like in Red Indiana where Dems largely go ignored.

Agreed. I would prefer everyone's vote to have an equal impact in the election of the president. As things stand now, those living in Wyoming have a far greater influence on who becomes president than those living in California or Florida. If it had not been for the need to balance the interests of slave states against free states in order to form a federal union at the end of the 18th century, we might well have ended up with a system in which the popular vote determined the national leader rather than a serendipitous collection of state delegations of electors.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The U.K. had a libertarian PM for about a month. Liz Truss was famously outlasted by a lettuce, but the damage to the economy is ongoing.

As protest votes go, The Monster Raving Looney Party looks a safer option imo.

 

[Revoltingest]

And is that going to happen?

It's possible.
I've seen other unlikely things happen.

High hopes & low expectorations.
That's my motto.
One of'm.

 

[Revoltingest]

My picture appears to be identical in size to yours. You just need new glasses.

Oh, another fanboy who believes he has The Truth.

This is close to the source of our disagreement. I don't think that Libertarians will gain any more influence than they've had in the past. They will always represent a marginal party that has a spoiler effect in close elections as long as we have first-past-the-post voting. The excuse I've heard for voting third party since I first began voting was that it would "send a message" to the party whose candidate got spoiled. AFAICT, that has never worked. It's hard to imagine what change they expect to happen, but they keep repeating the failed effort over and over, hoping for some different result.

Anyway, that's my comment on your plan. I appreciate the effort you make to respond to everyone.

I don't criticize your voting for evil.
It's understandable.
But this time, I'll vote for good.

 

[Revoltingest]

My second vote for Biden is a third consecutive vote against tyranny.

I sympathize.

 

[PureX]

I think the major parties fearing "third party spoiler" is an excellent thing to have happen. It means they will have to pay attention to those folk outside their loyal base if they want to win. It'll force them to represent more than just their base. Because ALL they'll want, is to win. Of course they'll just pay lip service and then ignore those voters once they get elected, of but look how doing that turned out for the republicans. It worked for a while, but eventually it destroyed them.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think the major parties fearing "third party spoiler" is an excellent thing to have happen. It means they will have to pay attention to those folk outside their loyal base if they want to win. It'll force them to represent more than just their base. Because ALL they'll want, is to win. Of course they'll just pay lip service and then ignore those voters once they get elected, of but look how doing that turned out for the republicans. It worked for a while, but eventually it destroyed them.

I don't characterize my choice as "excellent".
It's a choice that I hope will play out better
than voting for the lesser evil. But the
consequences aren't knowable in advance.

It also has entertainment value, ie, Biden fans
have conniptions over my not siding with'm.

 

[PureX]

I don't characterize my choice as "excellent".
It's a choice that I hope will play out better
than voting for the lesser evil. But the
consequences aren't knowable in advance.

It also has entertainment value, ie, Biden fans
have conniptions over my not siding with'm.

Well, it's better that deciding that "candidate X well serve my greedy selfish nature better then candidate Z will, so I'll vote for candidate X". Which is unfortunately what most people in this country do.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, it's better that deciding that "candidate X well serve my greedy selfish nature better then candidate Z will, so I'll vote for candidate X". Which is unfortunately what most people in this country do.

I am selfish in that I vote based upon
what I personally want the country's
leadership to do. There are more
personal concerns in life that just
financial enrichment. But I like
that too. Money is wonderful.

 

[Copernicus]

I think the major parties fearing "third party spoiler" is an excellent thing to have happen. It means they will have to pay attention to those folk outside their loyal base if they want to win. It'll force them to represent more than just their base. Because ALL they'll want, is to win. Of course they'll just pay lip service and then ignore those voters once they get elected, of but look how doing that turned out for the republicans. It worked for a while, but eventually it destroyed them.

So why hasn't that fear actually changed the behavior of a major party in the past? Did Jill Stein's run against Hillary Clinton change the behavior of the Democratic Party? Clinton was the favored nominee because she was perceived as the most electable candidate by rank and file Democrats. Joe Biden is the current nominee for the same reason. It is true that major parties do fear third party efforts, and that is why they support such runs when the third party is likely to bleed votes from the opposite party. That's why RFK currently enjoys financial support from Republican donors and Democrats in New Hampshire crossed over to vote for Nikki Haley. We have a two-party system that won't go away, and major parties aren't going to change because of quixotic efforts to promote third parties. Those third parties just become pawns in the games played by major parties to hurt the chances of their opponents.

 

[Copernicus]

Oh, another fanboy who believes he has The Truth.

See? We are similar in many ways, albeit we are sometimes fans of different causes.

I don't criticize your voting for evil.
It's understandable.
But this time, I'll vote for good.

I'm not saying your choice to vote for the Libertarian Party is evil, but you opened yourself up to criticism by starting this thread. I, too, would vote for the Libertarian nominee before I voted for Trump, but I see a vote for Biden as a far better choice, given the stakes.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not saying your choice to vote for the Libertarian Party is evil, but you opened yourself up to criticism by starting this thread.

I fully expected criticism, even virulent flavors.
I've not been disappointed.

I, too, would vote for the Libertarian nominee before I voted for Trump, but I see a vote for Biden as a far better choice, given the stakes.

I understand your vote for evil.
I too have voted for it.
Just not this time.

 

[PureX]

I am selfish in that I vote based upon
what I personally want the country's
leadership to do. There are more
personal concerns in life that just
financial enrichment. But I like
that too. Money is wonderful.

But most of us are still voting selfishly. We think the government should be serving our personal ideals and desires, rather than our voting for what we think will serve the whole of the nation best, including those who are not like us. And it’s this selfishness that gets used to divide us against each other so that we can be exploited.

 

[Revoltingest]

But most of us are still voting selfishly. We think the government should be serving our personal ideals and desires, rather than our voting for what we think will serve the whole of the nation best, including those who are not like us. And it’s this selfishness that gets used to divide us against each other so that we can be exploited.

It all depends upon what you call selfish.
What I want for the country is very much
at odds with what the majority wants.
Well **** them.
So I see my vote as selfish.