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I'm Voting Libertarian This Year

Estro Felino

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
A great professor of economics from Spain stated that Libertarians cannot vote for Trump.
Since Trump is much closer to Marine Le Pen's right-wing which is anything but libertarian.
;)
So I understand the OP's position. Very well. Very coherent.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
I believe that I can as well. I also believe that enabling a xenophobic, homophobic, and misogynistic, narcissist who looks up to the likes of Erdogan, Kim Jong-Un, Putin, Viktor Orban, and Xi Jinping, is a very dangerous and irresponsible game.
Click to expand...
And your supporting civil forfeiture abuse, police immunity,
genocide of Palestinians, wasteful spending, porous borders,
sexual predation (albeit much less than Trump's), & a total
lack of criminal & civil justice reform is also dangerous.

I'm tolerant of your Biden fandom.
It's reasonable, given his hideous opposition.
But doesn't justify your post's smug self-righteousness.

Am I back on <ignore> yet?
 
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Secret Chief

Secret Chief

Very strong language
Altfish said:
I'd vote Green, if they had the best chance, just about anything except Reform, to beat the Tories.
Click to expand...
Yes if it wasn't for FPTP I'd vote Green. Of course not voting for a party because you think they haven't a chance of winning is your own contribution to that being the outcome.
 
Altfish

Altfish

Veteran Member
Secret Chief said:
Yes if it wasn't for FPTP I'd vote Green. Of course not voting for a party because you think they haven't a chance of winning is your own contribution to that being the outcome.
Click to expand...
FPTP is a really crap system; in my constituency it is always Tory. BUT if the Lib Dems, Lab and Greens got together they would beat the Tories. But the left leaning vote gets split and the fascists get it.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Revoltingest said:
I always vote for whomever will likely (IMO)
yield the best (or least worst) result for the
country, & perhaps others.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that there is a difference between
  1. "vot[ing] for whomever will likely (IMO) yield the best (or least worst) result for the country, & perhaps others," and
  2. casting my vote in such a way that "will likely (IMO) yield the best (or least worst) result for the country, & perhaps others.
In 1964 the main presidential contenders were Lyndon Johnson and Barry Goldwater. I believed Goldwater to be the far greater 'evil' but was strongly opposed to LBJ as well.

After much soul searching and more than a few arguments, I voted Socialist, but I did so only because I was absolutely convinced that my protest vote would in no way accrue to the benefit of the GOP candidate. Put somewhat differently, in my opinion the best possible outcome for my vote would be that of enhancing the visibility of the Socialist candidate so long as Goldwater lost.

I seem to recall that you live in Michigan. (If not, pretend I'm right if only for the sake of argument.)

Were I to live in Michigan, my thinking (in accords with #2 above) would be:
  • In the last Biden v Trump presidential election Biden won by only 2.8% of the vote.
  • In the 2022 election Democratic incumbent Gretchen Whitman easily won reelection.
  • But that was two years ago and the Overton window seems to be steadily shifting to the right. So, for example, on January 9th The Hill announced Biden Trails Trump by 8 points in Michigan: Poll.
  • I have serious disagreements with Joe Biden but I see Trump as a qualitatively greater threat.
  • Given the above, I see my primary civic duty to be that of contributing to a Trump loss in my State.
  • The best way to do this is to vote for Biden.
Of course if you honestly view Biden and Trump as coequal threats, this post is irrelevant.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
It seems to me that there is a difference between
  1. "vot[ing] for whomever will likely (IMO) yield the best (or least worst) result for the country, & perhaps others," and
  2. casting my vote in such a way that "will likely (IMO) yield the best (or least worst) result for the country, & perhaps others.
In 1964 the main presidential contenders were Lyndon Johnson and Barry Goldwater. I believed Goldwater to be the far greater 'evil' but was strongly opposed to LBJ as well.

After much soul searching and more than a few arguments, I voted Socialist, but I did so only because I was absolutely convinced that my protest vote would in no way accrue to the benefit of the GOP candidate. Put somewhat differently, in my opinion the best possible outcome for my vote would be that of enhancing the visibility of the Socialist candidate so long as Goldwater lost.
Click to expand...
Voting for a Socialist is to vote for the greater evil.
Socialism is anti liberty, both economic & social as
history shows. So it's quite ironic that you criticize
me for voting Libertarian instead of Biden.
Jayhawker Soule said:
I seem to recall that you live in Michigan. (If not, pretend I'm right if only for the sake of argument.)

Were I to live in Michigan, my thinking (in accords with #2 above) would be:
  • In the last Biden v Trump presidential election Biden won by only 2.8% of the vote.
  • In the 2022 election Democratic incumbent Gretchen Whitman easily won reelection.
  • But that was two years ago and the Overton window seems to be steadily shifting to the right. So, for example, on January 9th The Hill announced Biden Trails Trump by 8 points in Michigan: Poll.
  • I have serious disagreements with Joe Biden but I see Trump as a qualitatively greater threat.
  • Given the above, I see my primary civic duty to be that of contributing to a Trump loss in my State.
  • The best way to do this is to vote for Biden.
Click to expand...
Biden is scrooing the pooch in Michigan with his support
for Israel's genocide campaign against Palestinians.
MI has a large Muslim, Chaldean, atheist, & youth vote.
Biden has only himself to blame for alienating them.
Jayhawker Soule said:
Of course if you honestly view Biden and Trump as coequal threats, this post is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
That seems a mischievous presumption.
Each poses different threats over different time frames.
And then there is my long term goal of a more powerful Libertarian
Party influence...likely an anathema to one who favors socialism.
We have different values.
 
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Secret Chief

Secret Chief

Very strong language
Altfish said:
FPTP is a really crap system; in my constituency it is always Tory. BUT if the Lib Dems, Lab and Greens got together they would beat the Tories. But the left leaning vote gets split and the fascists get it.
Click to expand...
Yes, it's **** (as is the US electoral college nonsense). Sensible countries have some form of PR. Or to put it another way: sensible countries are democratic.
 
Altfish

Altfish

Veteran Member
Revoltingest said:
Voting for a Socialist is to vote for the greater evil.
Socialism is anti liberty, both economic & social as
history shows. So it's quite ironic that you criticize
me for voting Libertarian instead of Biden.
Click to expand...
I do find this difficult to understand.
In the US it isn't Dems banning books and restricting womens' health care. What are Dems stopping?

In the UK, the right have restricted protest, restricted voting rights; prevented critical reports being published.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Altfish said:
I do find this difficult to understand.
In the US it isn't Dems banning books and restricting womens' health care. What are Dems stopping?
Click to expand...
Why are you posting this in response to
a quote about his preference for socialism?
Altfish said:
In the UK, the right have restricted protest, restricted voting rights; prevented critical reports being published.
Click to expand...
I didn't post anything about the UK.

Are you confusing me with someone else?
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
Revoltingest said:
I hope to send the message that civil liberties,
peaceful foreign policy, lower taxes, & having
the rule of law apply even to government
workers will prevail.
If you vote for Biden, you're voting in opposition
to those things. I understand that you're balancing
negatives against positives too. We each weigh
them, & decide for ourselves. But you do not
have the moral high ground. I don't claim it either.
Click to expand...
The ideals of Libertarians do not work in reality. If societies were made up of Buddhist monks, well then you could have a Libertarian society because the monks would be trained at deliberate thought and right action, and what exists in societies is a huge diversity of individuals, many very immature and even criminal. The less mature the society the more need for laws to manage the behaviors. So voting is a fool's errand. Want change? It aint going to come by electing Libertarians (who would quickly realize the need for more laws). Just look at what happened to the social media platform parler. They wanted a Libertarian, free speech platform that got nasty very fast. They quickly started setting rulkes of conduct because they were losing the decent users. The same thing happened in wild west towns, the decent people wanted no part in it. So law and order was hired to quell the "anything goes" behavior.

Libertarian societies are built by training children to be mature and responsible. It isn't created by eliminating rules and let the last man stand.
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
LuisDantas said:
Trouble is, Trump is not aiming to get anything done. He is all about promissing to be an authoritarian dad while behaving like a deranged brat.

You can not argue with delusion. Nor, apparently, with its support base.
Click to expand...
And look at Trump's influence, and the fallout that has already happened. The republican party has become MAGA, and ethical members are rare these days. The future of the USA literally hangs on independents. And given what many have said in interviews and polls, they are not well informed.
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
I find myself falling back on nothing more than an earnest hope that, when confronted with a ballot, most Americans will exhibit a little common sense. Nearly 81,290,000 of them did in 2020. And that is, you must admit, an astonishing number -- the highest turnout in US history.
Click to expand...
Biden won the popular vote by 7 million votes. But he only won the Electoral college by 42,000 votes in four states, which is why Trump tried to get those states to throw out ballots.

For the citizens of 45 states our votes don't matter. If you are a conservtive in a blue state, your vote doesn't matter. If you are a democrat in a red state, like me, our vote doesn't matter. Our president is elected by 4 or 5 swing states, that's it. The other 45 states don't matter. Biden could get 10 million more votes than Trump and lose the electoral college in 4 states.

Trump and his followers will go all out in these 4-5 states to hinder just enough voters in democrat areas, and that will be that. If they succeed there is no do over. I suspect MAGAs will call in bomb threats and close polling sites. Early voting will be crucial. Mail-in ballots will be crucial.

The big worry is thrid party candidates that have no chance of winning spoiling the election for Trump. Idealism is fine when there is no dangerous outcome in the balance, but the 2024 election is dangerous, and no time for idealism.
 
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