Immigration Poll

[Gharib]

Yes, in in those other threads I am uniformly critical, but never insincere. I view Islam and religion in general with skepticism, that does not make me insincere. If you can say that Islam grew by defending itself, then I think you're playing games with words.

I know that you hate Islam and Muslims, I will go one step less of calling you racist, so to say to me that you wish to understand Islam when all you do is attack it, not criticize it, seems to me a tad dishonest.

I am not playing games, I do not play games and I do not make jokes, I never went to clown school.

Early wars fought by Muslims were only against Byzantine and Persia (and their allies). They felt threatened that Muhammed was uniting the Arabs and they saw this as a threat because most of the northern Arabian peninsula was either under Persian and Roman rule/influence.

You tell me why Muslims went as far as Spain but not as close as modern day Russia???
Why they went so far as Constantinople and not a little further up?

 

[Gharib]

As an immigrant I voted that immigration has mixed results. It should mostly be open only to highly educated people.

Well, isn't that very nice.

I look and am partly Middle Eastern with a Muslim sounding name. I bet I have faced far more racism than you in Canada and USA. Not only from randoms, but I'm talking searches and interrogation. Also I'm low on the barrel for society, I don't get perks, old daddy's money/connections, quotas for affirmative action, seen as the 'bad guy' in society, etc. I have to shave when I travel, no matter what. Not even a little stubble.

Never been in such a situation. Which is why I said what I did, that people get treated like what you have. It is a reflection of ISIS' ideology, ill treat minorities unless they change their ways.

None of that would even touch the true oppression one get in an Islamic country. Have you ever lived in an Islamic State? Do you have friends and family who have, some who almost died escaping such states? Some who saw others killed while escaping such states?

I have heard stories of people who have lived there and know of people who have lived in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria etc. No such things have ever been reported.
Having said that, I know most of Middle Eastern countries are very very racist, even to other Muslims just for having a different race or being from a different country.

You are lucky the Leftists have thoroughly weakened Western society to the point that that they need Islamic immigration and replacement to stay afloat. Any sensible, sustainable society would not tolerate your bull**** for one second. When Islam becomes the majority in the West it will not be for any other reason than the Left creating the conditions to let it happen. It won't for divine reasons. It won't be cinematic. It will simply be the actions of a delusional ideology destroying the society, history and culture that gave birth to it.

Ha, what goes around comes around. Muslim lands were invaded by the superior white race of Europe between some 100-200 years ago by force. So when we go and live wherever it may be that we go, eventually we will grow in number, taking into account that many people from these countries become Muslims on top of Muslim immigration. So no it's not the leftists, it is due to divine reasons as the truth will spread and falsehood will diminish.

It is quite interesting to see how people are so hateful against Muslims and Islam simply because of being Muslims and following Islam.

 

[icehorse]

I know that you hate Islam and Muslims, I will go one step less of calling you racist, so to say to me that you wish to understand Islam when all you do is attack it, not criticize it, seems to me a tad dishonest.

I am not playing games, I do not play games and I do not make jokes, I never went to clown school.

Early wars fought by Muslims were only against Byzantine and Persia (and their allies). They felt threatened that Muhammed was uniting the Arabs and they saw this as a threat because most of the northern Arabian peninsula was either under Persian and Roman rule/influence.

You tell me why Muslims went as far as Spain but not as close as modern day Russia???
Why they went so far as Constantinople and not a little further up?

Then you do not know me at all. Stop guessing.

Islam makes enormous claims for itself. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and that's why I'm so critical of Islam.

As for your continued claim that Islam spread through defense, life is too short to debate such an absurd claim. But this is a typical claim that Muslims make in defense of Islam. It's extremely rare to hear a Muslim give any ground at all. My experience is that every criticism of Islam must be denied. No compromise is possible. So we have the idea that somehow Islam managed to conquer huge swaths of land defensively - wow!

On the other hand, I freely admit the mistakes that the West has made. Free thinking allows us to look at each situation objectively, to see both the good and the bad. Dogmatism on the other hand, forces the dogmatist to defend the undefendable. Hence we see that there is no compromise when discussing Islam.

 

[Gharib]

Then you do not know me at all. Stop guessing.

Islam makes enormous claims for itself. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and that's why I'm so critical of Islam.

As for your continued claim that Islam spread through defense, life is too short to debate such an absurd claim. But this is a typical claim that Muslims make in defense of Islam. It's extremely rare to hear a Muslim give any ground at all. My experience is that every criticism of Islam must be denied. No compromise is possible. So we have the idea that somehow Islam managed to conquer huge swaths of land defensively - wow!

On the other hand, I freely admit the mistakes that the West has made. Free thinking allows us to look at each situation objectively, to see both the good and the bad. Dogmatism on the other hand, forces the dogmatist to defend the undefendable. Hence we see that there is no compromise when discussing Islam.

Ahaaaa, OK you've made many claims till about now and when you got called out, as suspected, you presented no evidence to back up your baseless claims but rather insult me for being a Muslim to cover your own failure.

I think you would do yourself a favour to be a little more honest in your hate against Islam and Muslims. Stop sugarcoating your hate under the guise of criticism.

Run along now little horsey before you start to melt.

 

[icehorse]

Ahaaaa, OK you've made many claims till about now and when you got called out, as suspected, you presented no evidence to back up your baseless claims but rather insult me for being a Muslim to cover your own failure.

I think you would do yourself a favour to be a little more honest in your hate against Islam and Muslims. Stop sugarcoating your hate under the guise of criticism.

Run along now little horsey before you start to melt.

You really must distinguish between attacking an argument and attacking a person. In my experience we ALL - from time to time - put forward bad arguments. That does not make us bad people.

Islam is a set of ideas, a set of arguments if you will. Islam is not a person, it is ideas. When I criticize Islam, I am criticizing ideas. This is not sugar-coating. I believe there are MANY bad ideas in Islam. IMO, one of the most critical flaws in Islam is the idea that it is "perfect, final, unalterable, and timeless". Do I misunderstand, or is that one thing that Muslims claim to be true about Islam?

One example of why that claim of "timeless perfection" is a problem is that it gives ISIS really strong ground to stand on. If you were to engage in a debate concerning Islam with the leaders of ISIS, they would destroy you. The facts are on their side!

Now, while I'm no fan of Christianity, Christians have at least created denominations and each denomination declares its interpretation of the scripture. Christians have admitted that they have to cherry pick. If a group of Muslims were to come forward and document that they have cherry picked Islamic scripture and that they agree with only a certain slice of it, we'd start to see some progress. Are you willing to do that much Gharib? Or are you locked into defending every last Surah and every last moment of Muhammad's life?

 

[Aquitaine]

Yes I agree, but it's not the same when they try to promote themselves as welcoming to multiculturalism when in reality that's not the case.



If there will be any form of racism or discrimination, it won't be as bad as Australia. But I don't believe there will be. My people have lived there for over a hundred years now. I am yet to hear of anything bad.

Well, just be careful when you move. At the end of the day Muslims are no different than anyone else: we're all capable of being jerks. . . the same is true with countries.

Though now I wish we had a Turkish atheist on RF and then we'd be able to draw any parallels between how the two countries discriminate against certain minorities.

 

[Aquitaine]

Is the highlighted part a question?

And no, I do not believe in the latter.

No, the highlighted part was something I feel is important to add for the sake of perspective: we shouldn't be guilted for the actions of our ancestors and fortunately you agree.

 

[Sabour]

Not that this was directed to me, but you couldn't be more wrong.

One example of why that claim of "timeless perfection" is a problem is that it gives ISIS really strong ground to stand on.

ISIS isn't really on a strong ground, actually they are on a no ground at all. And "timeless perfection" is not the problem. The problem is something you were advising and promoting, that is cherry picking from the Quraan. What ISIS does is taking two words of a set of verses and putting them outside their context. Let me provide you with an example.

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

2:194 [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

If you look at the conditions to fight those than you will find.


1- They are the ones who started the fight.
2- They transgressed,.
3- Third they are the ones who expelled you out of your home.
4- Regardless of all that, if they stopped, you have to stop too.

Are these 4 reasons enough to fight back or not? If the answer is no, than your mentality would have probably seen Hitler ruling the world.


Of course, what ISIS does is that out of these four verses they would only take the "And kill them wherever you overtake them" part and disregard the whole context to justify that these actions are Islamic. This action is not only done by ISIS, it is done more and more by islamphobes and those who promote hating Islam.

They also disregard many verses such as the following:

60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

See not only we can talk to non believers, in deed we should be righteous to them if want God to love us. Not the last word of the verse, "Justly". Do you see any just in ISIS actions?


So when you ask Muslims to cherry pick, know what you are asking for.

Islam is a complete and perfect way of life when taken as a whole.

I am sorry that you have a problem with the word "perfect" and you don't believe in perfection, but God is perfect, and he surely provided us with a way to live our life. It is out there for us all to search for it. And if God is perfect than His way is perfect also.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Why should a country or land whose majority of inhabitants are Muslims be ruled by other than Islamic law?

Salaam,

If the (majority of) Muslims in that land don't want to be ruled by a particular version of Islaamic law.

Wassalaam

 

[Gharib]

Salaam,

If the (majority of) Muslims in that land don't want to be ruled by a particular version of Islaamic law.

Wassalaam

That would be impossible. Muslims, the majority, follow the scholars. If the scholars approve, so too would the people. But if you have in mind something like the rule of ISIS then as I said, the scholars spoke against it, so too have the people.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Yes weak argument indeed. You had nothing better, or rather intelligent, to say other than make a childish claim that Islam was spread by the sword.

You made a cheap shot seeking to provoke a reaction. But like I said, I don't feel like coming down to your level at the moment.

In the mean time, dwell on this:
"It is sometimes said that the Islamic religion was spread by conquest. The statement is misleading, though the spread of Islam was to a large extent made possible by the parallel processes of conquest and colonization. The primary war aim of the conquerors was not to impose the Islamic faith by force. The Qur'ân is explicit on this point: 'There is no compulsion in religion' (2:256). This was usually interpreted to mean that those who profess a monotheist religion and revere scriptures recognized by Islam as earlier stages of divine revelation may be permitted to practice their religions under the conditions imposed by the Islamic state and law. For those who were not monotheists and possessed no recognized scriptures, the alternatives were harsher, but there were few if any such in the regions ruled by the early Arab conquerors. The conquered peoples were given various inducements, such as lower rates of taxation, to adopt Islam, but they were not compelled to do so."

Prof. Bernard Lewis, The Middle East

Salaam,

Regardless of whether or not it was the primary war aim of the conquerors to impose their faith by force, Islaam was ultimately spread by the sword..

Wassalaam

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Turkey is seemingly surpassing any other country in the world in terms of treatment towards minorities

Salaam,

I don't think the Turkish government treats the Kurdish minority particularly well..

Wassalaam

 

[Gharib]

Salaam,

Regardless of whether or not it was the primary war aim of the conquerors to impose their faith by force, Islaam was ultimately spread by the sword..

Wassalaam

Yes they defeated enemies who sought their destruction and took over their land. I've never said land was handed to them peacefully. If you aren't aware of the threat that the Romans and Persians saw with the establishment of an Arab Empire and their attempts to crush it before it grew strong then in such a case it would appear that Islam attacked it's neighbours through baseless aggression, which isn't the case. It's like the US, if a country doesn't abide by it's laws then they get sanctioned, war breaks out etc. Is it the little guys fault for wanting what the US has or is it the US' fault for attaining what it wills and holding all others under it's feet?

 

[Gharib]

Salaam,

I don't think the Turkish government treats the Kurdish minority particularly well..

Wassalaam

Yes, that's why they love Turkey. Don't mix the PKK with the Kurds. It's like mixing ISIS with Muslims. No country is granting it's minorities any more rights than Turkey.

 

[Gharib]

Turkey is happily granting citizenship to anyone from Syria that want's it. Without any distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims, unlike western countries.

http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/...syrians-to-accelerate-economy-social-cohesion

This says a lot about it's treatment of minorities.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

That would be impossible. Muslims, the majority, follow the scholars. If the scholars approve, so too would the people. But if you have in mind something like the rule of ISIS then as I said, the scholars spoke against it, so too have the people.

Salaam,

Not impossible. We don't all (want to) follow the scholars. And we can point to a number of Muslim majority countries where the people do not seem to be in a great rush to bring back Islaamic law.

Wassalaam

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Yes they defeated enemies who sought their destruction and took over their land. I've never said land was handed to them peacefully. If you aren't aware of the threat that the Romans and Persians saw with the establishment of an Arab Empire and their attempts to crush it before it grew strong then in such a case it would appear that Islam attacked it's neighbours through baseless aggression, which isn't the case. It's like the US, if a country doesn't abide by it's laws then they get sanctioned, war breaks out etc. Is it the little guys fault for wanting what the US has or is it the US' fault for attaining what it wills and holding all others under it's feet?

Salaam,

I don't deny that the powers of the time felt threatened by the rise of our Muslim brothers and sisters, and that they sought to crush them. I'm just calling a spade a spade. I think people get too hung up on the idea that Islaam was spread by the sword. Of course it was. That doesn't make it a religion of war any more than any other religion which was also spread by the sword.

Wassalaam

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Yes, that's why they love Turkey. Don't mix the PKK with the Kurds. It's like mixing ISIS with Muslims. No country is granting it's minorities any more rights than Turkey.

Salaam,

I'm not so sure. And whilst they are no saints, the PKK are hardly the same as IS.

Wassalaam

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Turkey is happily granting citizenship to anyone from Syria that want's it. Without any distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims, unlike western countries.

http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/...syrians-to-accelerate-economy-social-cohesion

This says a lot about it's treatment of minorities.

Salaam,

I agree that Turkey has done more than most on this front.

Wassalaam

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

No, the highlighted part was something I feel is important to add for the sake of perspective: we shouldn't be guilted for the actions of our ancestors and fortunately you agree.

I agree we shouldn't feel guilty about what our ancestors did but we, at the same time, should not complain about immigrants, in their hundreds or thousands arriving while we took over their lands in greater numbers. It's not a matter of guilt, it's a matter of decency, knowing our history and doing the right thing.

We shouldn't do the right thing just because we're afraid to feel guilty.