Mister Silver
Faith's Nightmare
I think man is more than a doomed servant to an irrational belief.
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In the beginning...
- Thread starter Ted Evans
- Start date
I think man is more than a doomed servant to an irrational belief.
Ahem.
"7) If anyone cares to answer, I am looking for answers that can be supported by empirical scientific evidence, not theories."
I feel some of you are now purposefully derailing the thread with your pointless proselytizing. This thread wasn't about biblical / spiritual / personal evidence for god.
"7) If anyone cares to answer, I am looking for answers that can be supported by empirical scientific evidence, not theories."
I feel some of you are now purposefully derailing the thread with your pointless proselytizing. This thread wasn't about biblical / spiritual / personal evidence for god.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
personal evidence would have to include.....belief
gnostic
The Lost One
I understand that people - authors - can write something in one period about events that "supposedly happened" in another period.
But in the world of philology, history and archaeology, that don't really mean much if there are no independent evidences to collaborate with the contents of religious texts (eg Genesis, Exodus, etc).
There are no evidences that Moses was ever alive, to write Genesis to Leviticus, because there are no books, scraps of parchments, tablets, dating to the Bronze Age.
There are also no corresponding Egyptian accounts of 10 plagues, no mass liberation of Hebrew slaves, no mass exodus, and no evidences of the conquests of Canaan, by the Israelites.
If we were to believe that Solomon did exist as king and built the first temple in Jerusalem, then his 40-year reign be about 970 to 930. Correct?
According to 1 Kings 6:1, it stated that Solomon began his temple-building programme in his 4th year. This was followed by saying the Exodus "happened" 480 years earlier:
1 Kings 6:1 said:
Meaning, the Exodus out of Egypt began in 1447 BCE (967 BCE + 480 =1447 BCE).
1447 BCE would put the trek out of Egypt during the 18th dynasty reign of Thutmose III (1479 - 1425 BCE). And Moses was 80 years old at that time, so he would be born 1527, during the reign of 18th dynasty's 1st king, Ahmose I (1549 - 1524 BCE).
Here are the problems with these dates.
Exodus stated that Egypt king used Hebrew slaves to build 2 cities in Goshen, northeast region of Egypt, one of them being Rameses and Pithom.
I know for fact that Rameses never existed in Egypt during Ahmose's time, because Rameses would be the Egyptian Pi-Ramesses, which mean the "House of Ramesses". It was named after the 3rd king in the 19th dynasty - Ramesses II (1279 - 1213 BCE).
So either the person who wrote 1 Kings got the years wrong, or he doesn't know anything about which ruled at the time of Moses' birth, Moses' exodus and Joshua's invasion into Canaan.
And speaking of invasion, it would mean Joshua cross over the Jordan river about 1407 BCE. This would put in the reign of Thutmose's successor, Amenhotep II (1425 - 1398 BCE).
What does this mean? It would mean Joshua's army should have encountered Egyptian army, since both father and son had occupied both Syria and Canaan. Canaan was part of Egyptian empire at that time.
We know a lot about Egyptian kings of the 18th and 19th dynasties, because there are archaeological evidences as to who built what cities, palaces and tombs, and who are the figures on statues and in paintings, since they often have inscriptions of their names, and these sites or objects are date-able.
As you can see, I don't think the bible is very reliable in term of historicity.
So I am quite skeptical about OT authors writing about centuries before their time being reliable accounts as to what happened Moses or Joshua' times...if they actually exist, historically.
And relying on the Septuagint, won't make the OT anymore reliable.
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gnostic
The Lost One
To give you some examples, Ted.
From other members of RF who are Christians, some of them have claimed that in Genesis or in Exodus, some cities or towns mentioned in these books do exist, so they think that prove the bible 100% true, which make the existence of God, and other biblical figures (eg Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, etc) to be all true.
But that circular reasoning, not historical accuracy.
As I said in my last post, the only evidences for the existence of Genesis and Exodus, were composed by authors of the 1st millennium Iron Age, not in the 2nd millennium Bronze Age. So those cities already exist at the time of writing Genesis or Exodus; so they were written after the fact.
Second, just because those cities or towns are real that doesn't make the stories of Abraham or Moses real, and it certainly doesn't prove God's existence.
Third, a lot of myths and legends have stories that contained real cities and towns.
Homer, the 8th century BCE Greek epic poet wrote both The Iliad and The Odyssey. In The Iliad, especially in Book 2, known as The Catalogue of Greek Ships, have mentioned many cities that exist in Homer's time, but the story was set in the Late Bronze Age.
There are many local legends in Greece and Greek cities throughout the Mediterranean, where they claimed Heracles (Hercules) or Aeneas found or built this or that city. Does that mean Heracles and Aeneas are real historical people?
In series of Harry Potter, some of the scenes take place in the heart of London, but doesn't make the story or characters are true.
There may be some few historical accuracies inside the bible, but I can tell you that Genesis and Exodus are not reliable, historically.
From other members of RF who are Christians, some of them have claimed that in Genesis or in Exodus, some cities or towns mentioned in these books do exist, so they think that prove the bible 100% true, which make the existence of God, and other biblical figures (eg Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, etc) to be all true.
But that circular reasoning, not historical accuracy.
As I said in my last post, the only evidences for the existence of Genesis and Exodus, were composed by authors of the 1st millennium Iron Age, not in the 2nd millennium Bronze Age. So those cities already exist at the time of writing Genesis or Exodus; so they were written after the fact.
Second, just because those cities or towns are real that doesn't make the stories of Abraham or Moses real, and it certainly doesn't prove God's existence.
Third, a lot of myths and legends have stories that contained real cities and towns.
Homer, the 8th century BCE Greek epic poet wrote both The Iliad and The Odyssey. In The Iliad, especially in Book 2, known as The Catalogue of Greek Ships, have mentioned many cities that exist in Homer's time, but the story was set in the Late Bronze Age.
Does that mean the Trojan War happened?
Does that mean Achilles, Hector, Agamemnon, Priam, Helen, Odysseus, etc were all real people?
Does that mean the Olympian gods are real, like Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Apollo, etc?
Does that mean Achilles, Hector, Agamemnon, Priam, Helen, Odysseus, etc were all real people?
Does that mean the Olympian gods are real, like Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Apollo, etc?
There are many local legends in Greece and Greek cities throughout the Mediterranean, where they claimed Heracles (Hercules) or Aeneas found or built this or that city. Does that mean Heracles and Aeneas are real historical people?
In series of Harry Potter, some of the scenes take place in the heart of London, but doesn't make the story or characters are true.
There may be some few historical accuracies inside the bible, but I can tell you that Genesis and Exodus are not reliable, historically.
My understanding of BC time is that it is counted down not up, am I wrong? 967 - 480 = 487 BC not 1447, what am I missing?
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Using, e.g., 967 BCE as your baseline ...
one year later would be 966 BCE = 967 - 1
one year earlier would be 968 BCE = 967 + 1
two years earlier would be 969 BCE = 967 + 2
480 years earlier would be 1447 BCE = 967 + 480
one year earlier would be 968 BCE = 967 + 1
two years earlier would be 969 BCE = 967 + 2
480 years earlier would be 1447 BCE = 967 + 480
When you move forward in time, you subtract (i.e., count down); when you move back in time, you add.
Was that helpful?
I think you missed the point about the Septuagint, it had nothing to do with reliability, it was in reference to when scripture was written.
I would be happy to engage in a serious discussion of this subject, IF, we both agree to answer all questions that we may be asked, does that interest you? If so, I would suggest we start a new thread, the subject has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
That was sort of his point. It's called a counter-factual.
Yes, thanks, I misconstrued the comment by gnostic.
Precisely! And if you can't show it, why should we believe it exists?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
without a spiritual future.....Man is a chemical mystery
with no purpose
and no hope
only the grave awaits
why form 7billion copies of a learning device?
only to have ALL of them crumble to dust
gnostic
The Lost One
Not if you want to when Moses leading out of Egypt. So based on 1 Kings 6:1, you want to add 480 years to Solomon's 4th year in power, hence 1447 BCE.
Surely you don't think Moses would be leading Israelites out of Egypt when the Persians (emperor Darius) were ruling Egypt?
Which provides no proof and merely appeals to the ego.
Yes, life is chemistry. That doesn't mean we don't have hope: it means our hope is within us.
I suspect history is not his strong suit.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
and it is written....
the kingdom of heaven is within you
but apparently.....within you
the kingdom will fall
gnostic
The Lost One
About Septuagint bible vs others editions (Masoretic Text, Dead Sea Scrolls, Samaritan Torah, Targum, Vulgate)?
Or about the biblical timeline vs history/archaeology?
gnostic
The Lost One
I have only noticed Jayhawker's reply, only after I posted my own reply.
I had clicked on the Notification icon on top-right of the page, which looked a flag, press your link to read your reply, press the reply button, type and sent my reply...all of this happened, without me reading Jayhawker's post, until it was too late.
To Jayhawker:
Sorry, Jayhawker. I did click "like" for your own response.
What is written in fiction may not apply to reality.