In the Beginning.....

rational experiences · Feb 10, 2022

In the beginning o God total mass burning owning no infinite space itself did not speak. It's body unknown to a man theisms.

O became present God rock also unknown to man theisms as he can't mind travel into burning and live.

Consciousness.

O mass became God O from burning blasting as it cooled it's mass.

Cooled reburst from heat recreated heavens.

A God O.

As told by man brother to brother. As you owned multi men agreed discussions your record is heard as theism.

God owned nothing itself until it was owned another theism. As until it stopped burning it was disappearing into no presence.

Taught.

Clara Tea · Feb 11, 2022

Theists say that the universe was suddenly created by God, and God always existed. The bible says that He is the alpha (first letter of the Greek alphabet that I assume is the beginning) and He is the omega (last letter of the Greek alphabet that I assume was the end).

How can something be the beginning and the end? Does this mean that the beginning and the end are the same time? That would require the distant future to become the distant past. Or does "I am the alpha and the omega" mean that God was around at the beginning and was around at the end? Did God always exist?

What is the cosmic microwave background?

Theists say that the universe was suddenly created by God. Scientists say that the universe was suddenly created, and their studies and measurements show that it was 13.8 billion years ago. Notice that both scientists and theists somewhat agree that the universe was suddenly created. Scientists say that the universe started out as a plasma ball (molecules and atoms didn't exist). The plasma ball wouldn't allow electromagnetic energy to escape, since it was scattered by dense plasma. Then, as the universe expanded, matter formed out of the plasma, and that allowed free space for the electromagnetic energy to escape. That can be observed, now, as the background radiation of the big bang. This cosmic background radiation from the big bang is minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit (same as 2.725 degrees Kelvin). It showed up on old televisions as static when tuned between stations, though the peak energy is at a frequency is 160.4 GigaHertz.

Notice also, that scientists and theists agree on the basic principle that life was created from mud (Adam) per theists, and microbes evolved per scientists.

Increasingly, theists are modifying their views of religion to accommodate the opinion that the proof is irrefutable that evolution is real, and proven by DNA (which is accepted as court evidence, so it must be pretty solid evidence). Yet, theists still maintain that it is God who guided evolution and creation.

Scientists know that the universe is expanding (that is space stretching, not matter exploding). Spacetime is not expanding, just space is expanding.

We know that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum across the metric of space. Think of the metric as a chess board grid. However, the grid, itself, is stretching, and that is what is expanding. There are parts of the metric that travel away from each other faster than the speed of light.

Those objects, speeding away from each other, are not traveling across the metric of space, so Special Relativity doesn't apply, and time does not dilate. Thus, the Twin Paradox doesn't apply to distant parts of the universe that are traveling away from each other faster than the speed of light.

I wonder if it is possible that the universe might bend around on itself, making the distant future the same as the distant past. If so, the big bang is nothing more than the distant universe bursting into itself in its distant past. But, this is nothing but fanciful speculation which has no business in science. But, it would explain why God is the alpha and the omega.

Without such speculations, so far we are at a loss to explain how the entire universe burst into existence.

Scientists used to think that the extreme gravity of the entire universe was so great that the beginning of the universe had zero width, zero depth, and zero height. That is, the universe was smaller than the head of a pin, and it had no physical dimensions at all. Increasingly, scientists are beginning to propose that the universe always had some dimension (it wasn't a singularity of zero dimensions of space). Could it be that other dimensions were holding the plasma of the universe?

If matter is being sucked into a black hole, time will dilate, and time will slow to zero as it gets closer to a black hole. That means that matter will never reach the black hole. Yet, black holes exist. Could it be that black holes are hollow because there is never time for matter or energy to reach the center?

Either God was outside of the universe, or inside the universe.

If inside, time would dilate, so very little time for God would be a long time for us. Maybe that explains why theists assert that the world was created 6,000 years ago?

If God was outside of the universe, he might be in another universe or in no universe at all. But, there would be no way for anything to interact with our universe if outside of it, because time doesn't exist. We could speculate that time doesn't exist for God.

DNB · Feb 11, 2022

The aseity of God refers to His transcendence from His universe, or material entities. Equally, the eternality of God necessitates that God is outside space and time, is neither influenced or affected by it, nor are His activities measured by it (for, to God, a day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years like a day).

Therefore, if you are trying to either quantify or measure, in either chronology or geographical space, God's whereabouts at a certain point in time, it's not possible - His omnipresence and eternality, demands that He is everywhere at any given point in time.

Since the earth is not eternal, and it appears that God did create something out of nothing in six days, what was He up to prior to day one - everything and everywhere.

rational experiences · Feb 11, 2022

The dangerous theist human.

I believe my substance man self is God.

I believe all substance is the same type God.

I want to use god burn it up resourcing it.

Is a confession actually.

Men say the claim energy changes into lower energy and it never goes away.

Yet holes leaving empty space form in earths mass. Proven wrong lying about energy always had.

Otherwise no reaction could transport through a new space.

He lives in an infinite space plane filled in by hot radiating gases first as empty space is cold. Those gases cooled. Water filled in the rest of space. Our heavens.

Earth has no background its in heavens. Above our heads it thins disappears into the space background is not behind us.

As gases disappear as mass of energy. I think you say energy is mass presence. Then a lower mass of heavens energy is left.

Conscious you self advise what you caused by science nuclear. Talking mass itself gas was emptied out gone.

As you said volcano has sun radiation in it. Stone is cooled converted earth substance.

So our gases would already have owned higher radiation in natural history itself. Than stone rocks.

You used crystal transmitters in first pyramid science. Why did they blow up burn out? Technology isn't natural.

Consciousness uses consciousness to make quotes. It lied to itself. Energy does get totally removed.

As what entered a ground sink hole? Our lower heavens gas status did. Water oxygen as it's not energy by mass. Why it's less energy by energy of science.

Sedim Haba · Feb 11, 2022

You mean the story the stole from us? They haven't a clue what it all means.

RestlessSoul · Feb 11, 2022

Your question is unanswerable. Space and time are dynamic quantities, functions of our universe. Therefore there is neither where nor when, outside the limits of the universe. This is why there was initially so much resistance to the idea of the universe originating in a Big Bang; but that the universe exploded into existence from a singularity of infinite density and no dimensions, is now the consensus among cosmologists.

To resolve the apparent paradox of what was “before” the beginning of the universe would be, in the words of Stephen Hawking, “the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God”.

Brian2 · Feb 11, 2022

God was all there was in the beginning, and He did not need space or time to exist.
God is spirit and spirit does not need space or time. God is love and love does not need space and time.
God created space for the material universe to exist in.
Angels are spirits and we have no experience of what heaven is like in relation to space and time but it seems that God created heaven as the realm for spirits to live in.

exchemist · Feb 11, 2022

The inference is yours. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that. But in any case, since one of the ideas behind the Abrahamic God is that he transcends space and time, he wouldn't necessarily need a place to "be" in.

MyM · Feb 11, 2022

This question is irrational and impossible. It would never end...nor would there be two gods as well. That is why the trinity, in Islam would never come to be...Jesus as god and Allah the only one worthy. In Islam we believe him(Jesus) to be a mighty messenger of Allah pbuh.

All of creation goes back to the Creator Who created all things. No one created Him; He created everything other than Himself. This is what makes sense and is logical.

In Islam, these are considered to be thoughts of the Devil. Shayton has many ways of trying to disprove that there is no God. When people start thinking like this, we are to seek protection from Allah from satan the rejected....in Arabic transliteration...
Authu billehi minishayton nirrajeem.

The Messenger of Allah pbuh said: “The Shaytan will come to one of you and say, ‘Who created such and such?’ until he says to him, ‘Who created your Lord?’ When it reaches that stage, let him seek refuge with Allah [say A’uthu Billahi min ash-shaytan irrajeem = I seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Shaytan] and stop thinking about it.”

The Messenger of Allah pbuh said: “The Shaytan will come to a person and say, ‘Who created such and such…’” and he narrated the whole report. (Imaam Muslim, 134).

He (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah existed when there was nothing apart from Him.” According to another report: “There was nothing before Him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari; the first report 3020; the second report 6982).

****
The believer believes without a doubt, the non Muslim denies and the munaafiq (hypocrite) doubts.

"Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." al-A’raf 7:23

Rival · Feb 11, 2022

God is the basis of all existence. He exists within Himself. He transcends the material and tangible. As others have said, this question is meaningless as you're trying applying material concepts to the immaterial and transcendent.

Clara Tea · Feb 11, 2022

Scientists assert that the universe suddenly expanded, and, of course, they have observations proving that. Scientists assert that gravity was so strong in the beginning, that no matter was around, just plasma. The bible says that God created the heavens and the earth. This could very easily mean that God created the plasma.

Hoping to clarify, you have changed the words of the bible (not a good thing to do) to "In the beginning God created the skies and the land." Remember, scientists assert that no land existed, just plasma. So, your statement is contrary to science, but the bible is not contrary to science. So, I reject your "less confusing" translation for modern readers because it radically alters what the bible says and makes it inconsistent with science.

DO WE KNOW WHERE GOD WAS?

Perhaps we do know. Let me explain. Special relativity says that time dilates at fast speeds. General relativity says that time dilates in strong gravity.

Lets assume that God is standing still. Then all time dilation must have occurred as a result of strong gravity. Assuming that Christians are correct that the universe is 6,000 years old (lets not argue the age of dinosaur bones), and also assume that scientists are correct that the universe is 13.8 billion years old, God would have been located inside of the big bang, somewhere in a spherical shell (placing God at the precise location to cause time to warp to make both theists and scientists correct).

However, my original assumption that God was standing still might have been wrong. We can now assume that God was traveling at 10% of the speed of light and redo our calculation. We will have a different spherical shell inside the big bang where God must have been. Then we can assume that our 10% assumption might have been wrong, and assume that God was traveling at 20% of the speed of light. By continuing this process every 10%, we will have a range of locations for God. All locations would be inside of the big bang.

IS IT POSSIBLE TO LIVE INSIDE A BLACK HOLE?

Most astrophysicists would tell you that you cannot live in a black hole because the intense gravity (and tidal forces) would crush you and tear you apart. Yet, the entire universe might well be a black hole due to the fact that light cannot escape it.

Nimos · Feb 11, 2022

Wisdom were there before he created everything, that were the first thing created or that existed along side God. Also God is claimed to be outside time and space, so problem solved!!

Clara Tea · Feb 11, 2022

If ESP exists, and can predict future events and look back at past events, then ESP transcends time. It may not make sense from a standpoint of modern science, but maybe modern science hasn't yet advanced to the point that scientists can understand what is really going on?

Psychics believe that they can move their spirits (astral project). This transcends time.

Therefore, this is consistent with your concept of God (transcending time and space).

This would certainly explain why God is able to know the future.

Clara Tea · Feb 11, 2022

If God created the intricate complexity of everything (how the human eye works, how the chemicals interact in the body, etc.), then God must have been intelligent.

But, perhaps God didn't have to be intelligent to create the universe (matter and energy) and it evolved on its own after God created it, forming intricate and complex designs\?

Then it could be that God is an idiot who could make matter, and somehow (perhaps through natural selection....Darwinism) the universe evolved complexity?

Nimos · Feb 11, 2022

Obviously that is a possibility, but if God exist I doubt he is an idiot and just accidentally created a Universe with the complexity it has. But that is not an argument for me to make, because to me, none of it seems to be purposefully created. But rather just is or exist and evolves according to whatever rules govern our Universe. And these rules, again to me, doesn't seem to have been set with the intention of depicting intelligence in any way, shape or form.

firedragon · Feb 11, 2022

Excellent question. Which means if God exists, and he is the creator, and there was nothing before his creation, he is not a part of this universe or any space or any place. He is transcended.

pearl · Feb 11, 2022

In his 'little' popular book, 'A Brief History of Time' Hawkings recalls his invitation by the Vatican's Pontifical Academy of Science investigating the Big Bang theory and that they were warned by John Paul II not to enter into the time before the BB as it was 'the mind of God, and Hawkings jokes that was exactly the time he was interested in.
"
"He [the pope] told us that it was all right to study the evolution
of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire
into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation
and therefore the work of God. I was glad then
that he did not know the subject of the talk
I had just given at the conference - the possibility
that space-time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it
had no beginning, no moment of Creation. I had no desire to share the fate of
Galileo, with whom I feel a strong sense of identity, partly because of
the coincidence of having been born exactly 300 years after his death!"
Stephen Hawking, Galileo and the Pope (stmaryvalleybloom.org)
"Finally, Dr. Stephen Hawking, winner of the Pius XI Gold Medal, presented to the Academy a summary of his scientific research, focused especially on the study of the relationship between the forces of gravitation and expansion existing in the universe and the investigation of so-called "black holes".
Plenary Session (pas.va)

Hawking's speech
The Origin of the Universe (pas.va)

Clear · Feb 11, 2022

Hi @ACEofALLaces

ACEofALLaces said : “In the Christian Bible, it starts out, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", with the inference being that there was "nothing" before God created it.
Ok, well that brings the question to my mind at least, SINCE God is said to be Himself uncreated and WITHOUT beginning.....just where WAS God BEFORE He created a place for Himself to BE?” (Opening Post)

I agree with your point that the later “magical creation” from nothing is illogical and causes other problems of logic (e.g. the silly theory that "nothing" but God existed before the creation of this earth)

However, I do not agree that there was an “inference” “that there was ‘nothing’ before God created it”.
I think this assumption is irrational and causes the problems in logic.

The Early Judeo-Christians described in their literature that they did not believe that God created the material worlds out of “nothing” but instead, they describe their assumption of a creation from material which pre-existed.

“Ex-nihilo creation” (i.e. creation from “nothing” was a later invention of later christianities)

For examples :

When Justin Martyr, in his First Apology, says regarding Christians of his age : “We have been taught that He in the beginning did of his goodness, for man's sake, create all things out of unformed matter” (ex amorphou hyles). First Apology, 49. he is describing God Creating, but using pre-existing matter to create the worlds.

When Philo says : "This cosmos of ours was formed out of all that there is of water, and air and fire, not even the smallest particle being left outside" (De Plantatione 2.6) and when he says, "when the substance of the universe was without shape and figure God gave it these; when it had no definite character God molded it into definiteness. . ." (De Somniis 2.6.45). He is still assuming God was doing the creation with pre-existing matter.

When Athenagoras, tells us of creation that “… things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter." ,. he is still speaking of Diety doing the creating with pre-existing matter.

When Enoch, says that God commanded : “Let one of the invisible things descend visibly “Let one of the invisible things come out visibly, solid’ , he is still speaking of God, working with the pre-existing matter.

When Codex Brucianus refers to the early belief of "Creation” as “organization" (Manuscript # 96), God is organizing pre-existing matter into material things.

The Berlin (Mandaean) Papyrus as a Jewish Apocalypse tells us that at creation “At the same time, the great thought came to the elements in united wisdom, spirit joining with matter." It is still Deity that is using pre-existing matter to create material things.

The early Pistis Sophia from the Enochian literature speaks of creation, speaking of the Word creating by going down “into matter unorganized (chaos) and assist Pistis Sophis". It is still Deity that is creating by use of matter.

The early Wisdom of Solomon 11:17 speaks of God having "made the world out of unformed matter (ktisasa ton kosmon ex amorphou hyles),". It is God who is creating the world, but he is doing it from pre-existing matter.

There is a great deal of early Judeo-Christian literature that describes their early belief that God created material things out of pre-existing matter and not out of nothing.

2) EARLY CHRISTIANITY CREATION OUT OF MATTER VERSUS LATER CHRISTIANITY CREATION OUT OF “NOTHING”

The historical point has always been that the earlier Judeo-Christians believed and taught that God used pre-existing matter to form or create the earth and that their belief was more logical and more rational than the later theory where God creates the earth out of “nothing”. It was Christianity of later eras that adopted the theory of NOTHING existing but God and that God having created “from nothing”. (ex-nihilo)

One other point. Since there is no definite article (and the sentence in hebrew precludes the definite article), the sentence "In THE beginning" is incorrect. This is why bibles are changing this sentence to a translation which does not use a definite article, such as "In beginning creating" or "In beginning the creative process", etc. This specific first sentence in the old testament does not and cannot say In "THE" beginning as meaning the beginning of all things. Even in Jewish tradition, this world was not the first world created.

In any case @ACEofALLaces, good luck in coming to your own models as to what is correct in these historical concepts.

Clear
φιτζσεω

Fool · Feb 11, 2022

so this is why pantheism is the ideal. even john 10:14 is implying the same.

so there is no nothing. there is no thing. that which doesn't have a form, is forming, eternally/infinitely isn't formed/created. only forms have temporal being. so then as understood to the jew, god isn't anything definitive because it is unconditional.

so then this thing called god is formless; without beginning, without end, constantly changing, or a changing constant. it is a being, a verb. this is why god responds that "I AM" in exodus 3:14, the verb being..................

DKH · Feb 11, 2022

In my opinion, the Supreme Being exists in infinity, because the Holy One is infinity. Where, any other conclusion would put this Being in a box (Isa. 57:15) and limit the Holy One! Thus, the universe where angels and humans exist is within infinity. The angels of the Supreme Being have more understanding of the universe, because it was created for them. Where, the understanding of humans is limited. However, (it seems) that neither: angels nor humans have a complete understanding of infinity, because infinity has no beginning and no end. And this concept is beyond the angel and human mind's capacity…

In the Beginning.....

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